The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal • Hacker News Board

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#451

Post by tarakat » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:31 AM UTC

kaashif wrote: post #344

googlryas wrote: post #288

Isn't it more accurate to say the Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Lisbon(or Porto, or some other desirable city)? If you have a city with X housing units, but 5X people from within the city + all over the country/world want to live there, and for whatever reason no one wants to/can build 4X more housing units, how do you fairly determine who gets to live there and who doesn't? * Is it fair if you were born…

Using a word as subjective as "fair" allows for people to propose solutions you don't agree with, but that they think are fair. The author of the article says: > Digital nomads, retired foreigners, and millionaires searching for Gold visas are pushing the Portuguese to another place. > Is this really that fair? We are obviously supposed to say "no", but I think the answer is yes. I really hate this form of argument b…

It's hard to empathize with a belief system that thinks pricing a native population out of their own country is fair. I suppose if you hold that everything should be subordinate to economics, including community and nationhood?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#452

Post by ginja » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:31 AM UTC

wtcactus wrote: post #129

Portuguese here. I think this title is a bit sensationalist. It's true that a middle class Portuguese, with the extremely heavy income/property taxes we have to pay, will find it very difficult to live in Lisbon's or Porto's city center in a medium-upper apartment. Lisbon (and even more Porto) do have an extensive metro line though, and you can rent/buy an apartment on the outskirts (although still served by metro li…

While you raise some good points this a very politically biased opinion, and in some points also completely deceptive - e.g. our infant mortality is 8x lower than in 1982: https://www.pordata.pt/en/Portugal/Crude+death+rate+and+infa...

I'll just comment on the taxes, as someone who owns a business - yes, they are high. But not that much compared to the rest of Europe. I'm sure by now you're thinking "but other countries make a lot more money!!" - and that's exactly why taxes are high here. Our GDP is much lower, so if our tax rates were also lower, how would the government afford machines for hospitals, vehicles, fuel, and so on when all these things cost the same as elsewhere in Europe? The only thing that is significantly cheaper here is labor, after all...

Yes, things aren't good. But there's no easy solution either. I personally prefer to pay higher taxes than to compromise our public services further, or privatize them in a fuck-the-poor way.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#453

Post by mensetmanusman » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:31 AM UTC

42e6e8c8-f7b8-4 wrote: post #415

lr4444lr wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe largely isn't reproducing. It has to allow immigration for its survival.

It can also put in place policies to increase native population growth.

No one has found or discovered such policies that work across-the-board.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#454

Post by Aeolun » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:32 AM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #268

jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

> The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like. What? Have you ever been in Lisbon? The city is pretty dense as it is. You could mostly just build higher, and that has its limits too, depending on the structure and foundation. Adding more housing outside the core of the city might not be attractive enough. And increasing the density of people also means you need to incr…

40 story skyscrapers with apartments in the city center should solve the issue.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#455

Post by yieldcrv » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:36 AM UTC

Portugal is still cheap if anyone wants in.

The level of "rich" necessary is quite low.

but if you want to help the cause, you can also achieve a golden visa by employing Portuguese people, instead of buying a flat.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#456

Post by postsantum » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:38 AM UTC

immibis wrote: post #210

_vbnz wrote: post #193

Europe is facing complete economic collapse in the face of hyper-inflation, energy shortages, the Euro collapsing in value and rising interest rates. It's a shame that the continent that was once the birthplace of democracy, the scientific method, the industrial revolution and socialism has been reduced to nothing more than an open-air museum for wealthy Americans and a refugee centre for the victims of their wars. W…

Last time Europe had "strong leaders who will put first" it did NOT end well.

[flagged]

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#457

Post by redleggedfrog » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:39 AM UTC

stuaxo wrote: post #348

jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

Where does this end? A planet full of empty "luxury apartments" and most of us homeless?

If history tells us anything it's rich people's heads on pikes and shit ton of strife.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#458

Post by ginja » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:46 AM UTC

mtw wrote: post #34

This is not just Portugal. I see similar sentiment in Canada where young professionals in Vancouver or Toronto complain they can't buy their first home and Vancouver has been "sold out" to foreigners. Similar sentiment in Australian major cities as well.

Yeah, but it's much worse in Portugal, especially Lisbon. Here are some median home price to median income ratios for various cities (from Numbeo: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/in/Lisbon and corresponding pages for other cities):

  - Lisbon: 18.06
  - Porto: 13.55
  - Sydney: 9.09
  - Melbourne: 7.05
  - Vancouver: 12.62
  - Toronto: 11.82
  - San Francisco: 7.02
  - Los Angeles: 7.47
  - New York: 9.99

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#459

Post by galfarragem » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:48 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #115

jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

Nope, that’s the ultimate illusion. Portugal is already one of the EU countries with more houses per capita. More houses means more houses for foreigners. Locals would never be able to afford them.

This is just the dark side of globalism cheered by Portuguese politics for decades. Competition is global now. Local middle class is having their lunch eaten by foreign rich people or even middle classes from wealthier countries while the unrestricted influx of emmigrants from poorer countries keep sallaries down.

Suck it up and enjoy.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#460

Post by ttymck » Fri, Sep 02, 2022, 12:50 AM UTC

NoLinkToMe wrote: post #397

ttymck wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting, because (at least in America) the current rhetoric is that housing was laughably affordable up until the 70s(?). Now, even in suburbs, housing is far more expensive than most wage earners could expect to afford. Maybe we are thinking of two different sides of the same coin, but I would genuinely be interested in reading articles from the ~mid-century describing what you suggest.

> This is interesting, because (at least in America) the current rhetoric is that housing was laughably affordable up until the 70s(?). I always find this a bit of a disappointing discussion, cherry picked to the extremes. If we're being honest in talking about the cost of housing, we'd try to make apples to apples comparisons. For example, if we used to eat apples that were 2 inches in diameter, lacked sweetness, ha…

> it doesn't mean housing was laughably affordable and now isn't.

I appreciate your approach, and I hadn't considered this perspective, but it still rings hollow to me:

Can I purchase 1/2.6 of a house? Just because the unit cost of housing has gotten cheaper doesn't mean _owning a home_ is more affordable.

Sure, I'll accept larger homes are being built at cheaper unit-cost. But those homes are still being snatched up, continuously "above market". Why aren't more smaller homes being built at similar unit-costs?