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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#451

Post by ZephyrBlu »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #378
stackbutterflow wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't. Margins are thinner. Hardware companies have extra costs that software companies don't have. I almost tripled my salary by moving from what the person your replied to is looking for to the web. AND it's easier. AND I can work remotely. I don't blame them. But they'll be more and more desperate to attract people. The democratization of remote web jobs after COVID is another nail in the coffin. They pay les…

I think the real issue is that software is way overpriced.

Software is underpriced for the value it generates.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#452

Post by bumby »

blueblisters wrote: post #351
dbingham wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things - I don't think it's as easy as you think it is. If you're good at it, it can feel comparatively easy, because when you're good at it and you enjoy it - it's fun . It's flow. You get lost in it and don't realize that you were just working flat out for 12 hours. But there are lots of things that are flow that are not easy. I've been coding since I was 12, I have flow days where it's just an absolute pleasur…

Software engineering is not easy but no profession comes close to software engineering when it comes to the sheer number of high-paying jobs it creates. I think much of the "alpha" comes from being truly cross-disciplinary - all jobs can perhaps eventually be abstracted away into code, including software engineering itself.

One thing that becomes apparent when working on important, safety critical stuff is that cross-disciplinary problems require a team, many of whom are not SWE, because there’s a ton of domain specific and tacit knowledge a SWE generally won’t know.

Writing software to control a rocket or surgery or, hell, just a commonplace boiler shouldn’t be approach cavalierly.

Edit: to the downvoter(s): what claim do you have issue with? Do you think safety critical software can be treated cavalierly? Or that SWEs can replace that domain knowledge without other domain experts?

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#453

Post by bumby »

JeremyNT wrote: post #420
rmbyrro wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may find SE an easy job, but it isn't for most people. It requires above average: - Working memory capacity - Tolerance to extreme frustration, persistence - Ability to learn fast - Capacity to deal with particularly high incidence of imposter syndrome - I could keep going all day... SE is not overpaid. I actually think it's underpaid. Above all, the profession pushes for an early retirement.

> SE is not overpaid. I actually think it's underpaid. Above all, the profession pushes for an early retirement. I don't buy this. I think developers are highly paid because so many jobs are subsidized by VC speculation. It's easy to get a software job working on a BS product that solves no real problems and eventually disappears. But the money you get paid is real enough in your bank account. As long as VCs are will…

This is an interesting take. I wonder how much the last 20 years of relatively cheap capital contributed to this. A lot of VC money seems to already have dried up as interest rates start to rise.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#454

Post by [deleted] »

dougmany wrote: post #170
boppo1 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It makes no sense. Why is web software so easy to make money in? Why do we value hard engineering so little? Interest rate intervention (making them lower than equilibrium) changed the DCF valuation that is the fundamental way of evaluating business (i.e. people working together on large endeavors) to one where promising massive returns in the future(20+ years) made low returns in the near term (x now had to adjust…

Ironically, the 6 hour Fundamentals of Engineering test that I took after earning my EE degree had a section on Discounted Cash Flow. It is funny that you are using it now to explain why taking that has given me no utility so far.

[deleted]

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#455

Post by Panzer04 »

jltsiren wrote: post #381
christophilus wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand how the market dynamics work here. As a software engineer, I feel like the market is flooded with workers, and that it is an easy job. I have no idea how we’ve managed to sustain these salaries for so long. At some point, I keep expecting a correction in salaries simply due to supply / demand. I also keep thinking, surely other industries will start paying more and treating folks better, so they ca…

> I also keep thinking, surely other industries will start paying more and treating folks better, so they can attract top talent, but nope! In most industries, the money to pay more does not exist. American companies dominate in software, and they are also highly profitable. Because immigrating to the US is difficult and because many people don't even want to move there, there is a shortage of software engineers in t…

If software use is generating 1% of that growth, it explains why it's so important - whatever is growing productivity the most is going to grow profit and thus ability to pay higher wages.

Especially as software can be applied in so many different applications to replace human workers and improve productivity, you can almost always make more money with more devs, hence the almost unceasing demand for devs. I think this is unlikely to stop, as things keep changing and demanding software be rewritten, or more applications found for software.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#456

Post by bumby »

nitwit005 wrote: post #192
bumby wrote: post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

It doesn't really seem like a "hustle" thing. You have the choice in working one of two quite similar jobs, in quite similar fields, but one of the jobs pays far more. You also may have a friend who's already made the move telling you to join.

>You have the choice in working one of two quite similar jobs

My issue with this take is that it’s also quite likely that the jobs are completely dissimilar. How long do you think it would take a front-end SWE to develop a 480kV electrical grid or vice versa? Both domains require specific skills and should be respected as such

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#457

Post by rmbyrro »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #328
rmbyrro wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may find SE an easy job, but it isn't for most people. It requires above average: - Working memory capacity - Tolerance to extreme frustration, persistence - Ability to learn fast - Capacity to deal with particularly high incidence of imposter syndrome - I could keep going all day... SE is not overpaid. I actually think it's underpaid. Above all, the profession pushes for an early retirement.

>It requires above average: [...] Literally all those traits you listed are needed as an EE(and in many other white collar and blue collar professions too) plus add even more scary stuff like advanced math (for PID tuning, system signal processing, system modelling and simulation, etc.), but for way less pay that even a kid making iOS apps who hasn't passed highschool math can out-earn you. So how is that fair? My ex…

I mean above average of everything you mentioned.

Don't have a hard data to reference, it's just my personal, anecdotal observation.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#458

Post by bumby »

vostok wrote: post #133
bumby wrote: post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

I'm an engineer at heart, but I do have bills to pay and I can become interested in basically any complex system. If EE paid better, I would be an EE. EE is interesting. Neither SWE nor my chosen career are sufficiently less interesting than EE though so it's not like I picked an uninteresting career for financial reasons. At the end of the day it's all just problem solving. If the puzzles are all fun and don't go ag…

This is a very reasonable take. As you say, you can become interested in any complex systems to try and solve problems, so the main differentiator can become money. The issue I was pointing to is nobody else was pointing out that same context, they were solely about money. Not solving worthwhile problems. Not developing skill sets. Just the paycheck

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#459

Post by giardini »

At some time in the past departments made a distinction between electrical engineers who focused on power engineering versus electrical engineers who focused on digital computer hardware/software. Discussions at one time indicated the numbers of "power engineering" students was dwindling to a worrisome extent.

Is this distinction still made?

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#460

Post by midoridensha »

frognumber wrote: post #363
killjoywashere wrote: post #119

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

I don't think that's at all right. EE is hard. Bad EEs are unemployable. There's no demand. EE is also beautiful and absolutely fascinating. You get to: - Do beautiful math - Build things and get your hands dirty - Do super-creative design ... and so on. It's just fun! I have a Ph.D in electronic engineering from a top school, and I don't regret one minute of the program. I graduated during a downturn, and finding a…

I also wonder how much is due to location. EEs in the US only seem to get hired in certain industries these days, depending on what it is (i.e., writing HDL vs. electronic/PCB design and other things). Much of it just seems to be military now. So if you stay in EE, that means the jobs are only in certain locations, which might not be all that attractive to you, compared to where many software jobs are.
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