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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#451
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, I would say my nephew is significantly more social than most people in my generation were, because he is able to get in 5 hour calls with his friends every night, whereas that might happen only once every few weeks in my case, at best. He's learning and socializing way more than even my most social peers were able to growing up.

But that’s unfortunately a rather useless form of socialization, as most of his life interactions will be face to face. Job, romantic life, etc.

My experience has taught me this is just untrue. My various jobs have been 100% remote for the last 6 years, so being comfortable with video and voice calls is essential to that.

Going back to when I was a high schooler, I was closeted and in boarding school, which admittedly had a significant built-in social life (that was of little interest to me), but I was also able to have a long distance close friendship for years thanks to Google Talk. I dare say some of my most important and formative social moments in my high school years were over Google Talk with my small group of friends. Sure we had antics in the dorm at my boarding school etc., but these were minor and fleeting interactions versus the deep and meaningful relationships I had over Google Talk, and anyone I actually cared about at boarding school also interacted with me that way, a good bit.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#452
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Coddling ?" Social anxiety is a genuine mental illness, and a protected disability. This kind of arrogant, ableist crap is exactly why we need to destroy the cultural norm that everybody being in the office all the time is the only way to do work.

Social anxiety is as much of a mental illness as the fear leaving a bad impression on a date, fear of spiders or fear of doing poorly at an interview and enjoys the same kinds of legal protections. Which is none.

I'm inclined to ask what your qualifications for such an opinion are.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the point the OP was trying to make and you know that. Lesson one: don't assume the worst about people and don't make hyperbolic arguments in order to be "right". You might have more in-person success that way.

The point they were making was ignoring one of the groups of people that I mentioned, because in order to make their point they _had_ to ignore that class of individual. > > I'm naturally introverted, but when I say that to co-workers they don't believe it - because over the years I have learned to adapt. > > There are tons of things I can do now that I couldn't do before. Many of them are unpleasant. But they are ne…

You can. All the answers are in your childhood, but you may discover things that you won't be able to forget

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#454
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

Well, off the top of my head, black folks, asians, and latin folks might be more likely to be caretakers and/or further from the office. That said, if they have Apple salaries, I'm sure they can work it out. That said (again), they might need to spend more of that Apple salary than their peers to figure it out. So, it's a bold and unsubstantiated statement, but might have some truth to it. Idk, wish they would cite s…

What source would one cite for this that's not just anecdotes?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point they were making was ignoring one of the groups of people that I mentioned, because in order to make their point they _had_ to ignore that class of individual. > > I'm naturally introverted, but when I say that to co-workers they don't believe it - because over the years I have learned to adapt. > > There are tons of things I can do now that I couldn't do before. Many of them are unpleasant. But they are ne…

You can. All the answers are in your childhood, but you may discover things that you won't be able to forget

... No. Many people suffer from partial or full paralysis of facial muscles, neurological conditions that limit expression, and numerous other conditions that will forever and permanently limit their ability to engage in expressive body language.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.

There is no possible way for you—or any of us, at this present moment—to know just how those tradeoffs and the shape of work will be changed over the next few decades by this pandemic, its aftershocks, and the new understanding we have all gained of just what is really possible with remote work. The idea that because you've been working for a decade or two and know how things were before the pandemic, these poor, dum…

lol - the pandemic isn't permanent. It was a great force to help force normalization of remote work at organizations that otherwise would have never embraced it - but thinking that all companies are going to suddenly change their corporate culture because of a couple year event is laughable.

Maybe Apple will loose enough talent over time to where their corp culture will have to adapt. I doubt it. Wouldn't mind if I'm wrong (I think at least having the option for at least some remote work is overall very healthy overall), but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#458
post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

A lot of tech savvy younger folks are perfectly capable of making relationships entirely online. I'm not even young, and I've done it myself. 25 years ago, I made several friends on Yahoo Chat! who I have never seen in real life but speak with regularly. Many more over the years via builtin boards. These days discord exists and it's a primary social source for a number of kids. These kids could enter a fully WFH work…

My story is the same as yours, but I don't think online communications (especially "structured", formal, work ones, like a daily standup over Zoom) capture everything that spontaneous "hallway" conversations do, including with people not on even on your team who you'd never talk to otherwise.

I wish it were same, but, even as someone who grew up with more online relationships than meatspace ones, I'd be lying if I said it is. Maybe VR in some 15-minutes-after-tomorrow future can bridge the gap.

I experienced how "not the same" it is with in-person and then remote interactions with other young people in college classes and then with older people in work, and, in both cases, I felt things were lost once we went remote.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is me. I find it much easier to converse online. I also am content staying in my house for years on end (as COVID has shown) and getting my social interaction from text on a computer screen. The internet has been my main source of social contact since I was 12 (at which point I just stopped going outside and spent all my time building websites), so I guess I've adapted to this way of living.

> so I guess I've adapted to this way of living. Humans are almost infinitely adaptable, but if the vast majority of the world doesn't adopt a lifestyle similar to yours I fear you're really going to miss out a big part of what "living" includes. One large component: diversity, both in content and medium. There's also the real and serious worry about "not going outside". this is terrible for your health and also has…

Conversely, If the vast majority of people keep commuting and building skyscrapers just to present some charts and graphs to each other in person because grandpa CEO doesn't know how to use Zoom and HR wants to monitor you at all times, we're going to be wiped out by climate change anyway, so pick your poison I suppose. I, for one, choose survival.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#460
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

From the OC: "They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce." I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no…

>Unless, of course, you'd rather be right, over actually winning.

And thus the majority of friction in todays discourse.

Something I still fall prey to more than I like and try to stay vigilant of so thanks for pointing it out!

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