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Dart language

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Re: Dart language

#451

Post by BrendanEich »

robbrown451 wrote: post #448
BrendanEich wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had better put up or shut up. I did not call anyone names. Cite my words if you can. As for defensiveness, that looks like your department.

Well, uh, I guess if you put it that way, I sure better.... Whether you want to debate whether the term "name calling" is accurate or not, I would suggest that the following fall astray of Hacker New's guidelines of "the principle here is not to say anything you wouldn't say face to face". Then again, I don't know.....maybe you are that way in person too. "Grow up!" "Such ignorance. Willful? You seem new around here,…

Name-calling means calling a person a name. If I say "Joe is an idiot", I have called Joe a name.

If, on the other hand, I call someone's behavior or rhetoric out, then that person has room to back up. We all make mistakes -- definitely me included.

Your previous comment accused me of NIH without evidence. I talk back to that kind of crap. I'm not baiting you. Let us take each other at our word.

Re: Dart language

#452

Post by BrendanEich »

magicalist wrote: post #450
BrendanEich wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We agree on Java the language being mismanaged. Especially in comparison to C# (see a recent InfoQ interview with Neil Gafter). But the JVM is in better shape. I despair of your reading comprehension, though, when it comes to what I have written about the leaked memo's Dash strategy. I never wrote that JS can be as fast at Dart-to-JS code as a native Dart VM could be. Not ever -- quite the reverse. Now if we on TC39…

I think if it wants to be taken seriously as a good force in advancement of the web, google does have to be aboveboard with its involvement in TC39 and put in significant effort there. Maybe they really should have put in more effort to pushing strawmen through (I wasn't paying enough attention a year ago to comment on that). But are you suggesting that particular people at google should have been (forced to be?) mor…

Does it matter who said that? I don't think so.

You seem scandalized by the idea that an employer might force employees to work on standards (or anything else per typical work-for-hire contracts).

That is not unusual. It's dog-bites-man.

What's going on is unusual, in my experience.

Google is forcing people it employs off of tc39 work. I will not say whom, since I was told in confidence. Three people at least. This casts a different light on the Dash memo's serve-two-masters glibness, and on Alex Russell's recent blog post.

Re: Dart language

#453

Post by dherman »

jmesserly wrote: post #108
munificent wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. Go, Python, Ruby and Scala all have optional semicolons without insanity. It's just that JavaScript's specific semantics for semicolon insertion (instead of newline elision!) are batshit crazy.

And pretty much all functional languages get by just fine without semicolons (Lisp, ML, Haskell, etc).

Haskell has curly braces and semicolons.

Re: Dart language

#454

Post by beej71 »

maratd wrote: post #389
Lewisham wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they have released a language that is primarily designed to enhance their own tool-chain You make this sound like its a bad thing, but that's open-source always and forever. Scratch your own itch.

This was advertised as a replacement for JavaScript. It turned out to be a replacement for GWT. False advertising. I'm wasting time reading specs and code samples and comments just to figure that out. I don't like being misled or wasting time.

I'm curious what you thought a JavaScript replacement would look like. Apparently you thought it /wouldn't/ look like GWT.

Re: Dart language

#455

Post by politician »

BobTurbo wrote: post #444
politician wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, you would write that query as: var q = from m in grains.OfType () where m.Value.Contains(null) orderby m.irrelevance select m; return q.FirstOrDefault(); which fits in 80 characters on one screen. From this post and your reply, it seems like the your complaint is that LINQ is hard to understand if you write it poorly. But that's true of most programming.

Yes if you write it like that, it removes one of my complaints, but it leaves the other. You now have inconsistency in the language because LINQ is basically being used as a new type of language added to an existing language. You are working with two languages at once. Why stop there? Why not add python to c#? And every other language. The super language that has everything from everywhere. It is a total mess.

LINQ solves a real business need -- how to access sets of data, regardless of the source, in a uniform teachable way. If you can teach people how to query data structures using a one syntax that is integrated into the language, then you don't have to teach them a different API for every different data source. By encouraging the few API designers to target a standard, the many API consumers can build more reliable code faster.

If you approach it as what it is, yes, a language-integrated query syntax, and avoid the fluent-chaining style most of the time, then you'll see an information-dense productivity booster instead of a "total mess".

The LINQ syntax fits on 1 sheet of paper:

    http://www.albahari.com/nutshell/linqsyntax.aspx
Personally, I look at the two-tier language and library support as a case of "the easy things should be simple, and the hard things possible." That's just my own take, but I find that it guides thought process a little better. I look for a syntax solution first, then rewrite it using a chaining style if I need to (e.g. SelectMany), or possibly split into multiple queries. I don't think I've ever written one longer than 10 lines, properly formatted.

Now, as far as python and other languages are concerned, LINQ is less "python in C#" and more "PEP 202 in C#".

Re: Dart language

#456

Post by cwp »

drothlis wrote: post #249
danmaz74 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good development environment is something where you could really differentiate yourselves, and I guess you could very easily integrate introspection and analysis features into chrome to help with it. I've been thinking for years that if I ever were to develop a new language, I would start from developer usability first - I think there is much more to innovate there than in the core language features, nowadays. Deve…

Certainly feasible: Smalltalk debuggers do this. And Smalltalkers (allegedly) use a workflow just like you describe.

Yup. I often do something like this:

  - write a test for a method that isn't there yet
  - run it, get a red bar, as expected
  - run it in debug mode, and get a debugger
  - write the method implementation in the debugger
  - possibly write other methods that the new method calls, also in the debugger
  - resume the program, get a green bar
Writing code in the debugger is great, because you've got all the runtime state right in front of you, and you can step through the code you're working on. I'd love, love, love to see this in Dart.

Re: Dart language

#457

Post by WayneDB »

BrendanEich wrote: post #446
WayneDB wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, really? Grow up? Nobody said it was all good for everyone. I made a counter-point that was clearly as balanced as the original point. Anyway, it really depends on your point of view. Personally I love the IE6 stagnation and other failures that affect the web such as the epic lameness of Javascript. Why? I think the whole platform sucks and I'm glad to see it fail and push people to build better solutions.

"Abso-friggen-lutely" on top of "three cheers" lacks qualification about the thing you cheered being less than good for anyone. You were abso-friggen-lutist. Anyway, the open web standards are not failing. Dart is not a clearly better solution. I get your point about XHR, but do try to take mine about the whole history being a mixed bag, including what IE did. We can do better.

georgemcbay basically said [why shouldn't Google do what they want with their browser?], to which thristian replies [because...Microsoft]. I think that's a bullshit argument, especially since there's nothing about Dart that threatens to take away anyone's freedom to continue using Javascript or whatever else comes along.

I gave a bullshit reply to make a point; let's call it hyperbole. Of course I know that it was a mixed bag for everyone. Some good things did come out of it though, IE6 is almost gone and those good things are still here (and they've evolved). Evolution is slow and life itself IS indeed a mixed bag. Business is WAR!!

Anyway, I love, love, LOVE the fact that people are working on giving us lowly blub programmers a choice. :)

EDIT: Didn't realize who I was talking to, so let me be really clear that I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with all things in tech, including Javascript!

Re: Dart language

#458

Post by tbranyen »

BrendanEich wrote: post #451
robbrown451 wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, uh, I guess if you put it that way, I sure better.... Whether you want to debate whether the term "name calling" is accurate or not, I would suggest that the following fall astray of Hacker New's guidelines of "the principle here is not to say anything you wouldn't say face to face". Then again, I don't know.....maybe you are that way in person too. "Grow up!" "Such ignorance. Willful? You seem new around here,…

Name-calling means calling a person a name. If I say "Joe is an idiot", I have called Joe a name. If, on the other hand, I call someone's behavior or rhetoric out, then that person has room to back up. We all make mistakes -- definitely me included. Your previous comment accused me of NIH without evidence. I talk back to that kind of crap. I'm not baiting you. Let us take each other at our word.

For what its worth, I felt really awkward reading many of your replies in this thread. You are our spokesperson for JavaScript and the CTO of Mozilla. It would be nice if you could talk to people without making disparaging and downright condescending remarks.

I look up to you to speak for the community and to use judgement and character. Anyways, maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but I figured I'd say something.

Re: Dart language

#459

Post by cppsnob »

artsrc wrote: post #429
cppsnob wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Staying with the norm worked out quite well for both Java and C#.

When I learned Java in 1996 I did not already know Haskel, Lisp and Python. Now I do.

I learned LISP and Python before Java and C#. The latter two are just as useful nevertheless.

The world's experience outside of HN makes me think Dart will not be at all inhibited by its Java like syntax. If it doesn't catch on, it will be for other reasons.

Re: Dart language

#460

Post by BrendanEich »

tbranyen wrote: post #458
BrendanEich wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name-calling means calling a person a name. If I say "Joe is an idiot", I have called Joe a name. If, on the other hand, I call someone's behavior or rhetoric out, then that person has room to back up. We all make mistakes -- definitely me included. Your previous comment accused me of NIH without evidence. I talk back to that kind of crap. I'm not baiting you. Let us take each other at our word.

For what its worth, I felt really awkward reading many of your replies in this thread. You are our spokesperson for JavaScript and the CTO of Mozilla. It would be nice if you could talk to people without making disparaging and downright condescending remarks. I look up to you to speak for the community and to use judgement and character. Anyways, maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but I figured I'd say something.

I take your comment to heart. Sometimes I bite back too hard.

To all those here to whom I've made "grow up!" and similar remarks, my sincere apologies.

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