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Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

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Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#451
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every word of the assignment creatively misinterpreted I hear you, communication is hard, but trust me your statement and the authors are an AND not an OR :) the difference is scale. the students are about 1v30 when it comes to opportunities for badly written assignments. In a typical semester, I am 1v120+ hostile attacks on my communication skills The number of students I have that actively presume I am trying to…

> The number of students I have that actively presume I am trying to trick them is truly astonishing. > I've put parts of answers in the question text, underlined them, and then had students tell me they thought it was a trick. Why wouldn't they assume that? Tests are nothing but games where students figure out what answers you want. They can do that by learning the material, but there's a metagame. What were you thi…

I actually would have chosen "they" on that multiple-choice question, because it asks about ships, plural.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#452
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every word of the assignment creatively misinterpreted I hear you, communication is hard, but trust me your statement and the authors are an AND not an OR :) the difference is scale. the students are about 1v30 when it comes to opportunities for badly written assignments. In a typical semester, I am 1v120+ hostile attacks on my communication skills The number of students I have that actively presume I am trying to…

> The number of students I have that actively presume I am trying to trick them is truly astonishing. > I've put parts of answers in the question text, underlined them, and then had students tell me they thought it was a trick. Why wouldn't they assume that? Tests are nothing but games where students figure out what answers you want. They can do that by learning the material, but there's a metagame. What were you thi…

I think we are on the same page.

My point wasn't that they shouldn't or should, its that they do. As you note it has been socialized into them. The problem is systematic, not something any one educator can fix. Bad teachers, and bad educational experiences create long term damage beyond not learning content.

Good tests actually assess learning - what you mentioned is not a good test. Just like a test that causes stress ends up measuring stress isn't measuring learning.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#453
post #434

This passage is terrible and beautiful: Here’s a story from my father. He was teaching a course for working professionals that had a large project component. He—being naive and idealistic—decided that as long as the students eventually finished the project, they had learned the material, so they should get full credit. Thus, his policy was that students could submit the project, get it graded, and then repeat this pr…

>Particularly those who care about their grades and are actually trying to abide by the spirit of the thing and not game the system. A grading system that is more work for students focused on the grade over learning is something I would see as a feature not a bug.

It's not more work if you're focused on the grade over learning; it's more work if you care about the grade at all, assuming the material is at all challenging. Unless you get a perfect grade on the first attempt (or at least a high enough grade to guarantee yourself a top mark in the course overall), you're going to feel compelled to keep re-trying. (And if other coursework forces you to leave it be, then to feel like you're missing out.) Better to be able to just put in your best effort the first time, and then you're done. I can only speak for myself, but I would have hated this system when I was in school.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of students I have that actively presume I am trying to trick them is truly astonishing. > I've put parts of answers in the question text, underlined them, and then had students tell me they thought it was a trick. Why wouldn't they assume that? Tests are nothing but games where students figure out what answers you want. They can do that by learning the material, but there's a metagame. What were you thi…

I actually would have chosen "they" on that multiple-choice question, because it asks about ships, plural.

... And you would have been right.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems possible the teacher's instructions were confusing. Yes; I've been on both sides. I've written assignments that I thought were clear and unambiguous, only to find that a significant number of students misunderstood what I meant. They weren't intentionally trying to make the problems easier, they just weren't sure what I wanted. (And, of course, who is going to interpret an ambiguous problem so as to make m…

> who is going to interpret an ambiguous problem so as to make more work for themselves? I did. In fact I always tried to find a unique or novel solution to my problem sets, ambiguous or not. (If the problem set contained a hint I tried mightily to not use the hint, I'd always try to replace a proof by contradiction with a constructive proof etc...) My marks suffered for it. I even almost failed a first year exam cos…

I was never one to game the system until I was failing 3 classes while on academic probation (2 Fs would have gotten me kicked out). Then I gamed the shit out of the system.

That was my breaking point. Others it's losing a scholarship; others, getting a B.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#456
post #326
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a physics undergrad who hopped into a few grad classes, and to be honest I was terrible at homework and great at exams (mostly due to some youthful obstinance on putting the time in on homework). At the time I believed that the exams showed who really knew the material and who applied time to solve the problem. With some time past I see that the larger/tougher problem sets were where the real challenge was. I r…

> The work for the first question easily totals > 20 hours of pen and paper time. I guess grad students generally take less coursework than undergrads, but how could a professor expect students to have 20+ hours on hand to solve a single question, given other demands on a student's time?

I had an undergraduate lab where I spent 20 hours per week on the lab write ups.

That's what motivated me to switch away from a physics major.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#457
post #366

One of the most effective exam techniques I have seen, which is uncommon in my country but maybe common elsewhere, is oral exams. I TA’d for a German professor who did them for his stat/ML course, and so got to sit in on all of them (I also took the course myself in an earlier year so had the experience as a student as well). The process was: 1. Give students a list of about 100 questions in advance, more than you co…

Oral exams are awesome. The problem is they don't scale up to a high number of students. A teacher with hundreds of students literally cannot afford the time and effort to properly examine the knowledge of the students. So they make these multiple choice tests they can just apply to every student in parallel. All of these problems with academia are rooted in the fact it's a mass education system designed to teach hun…

You’re right, it was a lot of effort on the part of the lecturer and it didn’t scale well as the course got more popular. I think it’s best suited to smaller, later year niche courses.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#458

I've often thought the same thing about becoming an adult, especially a parent, in general. There are so many choices that I harshly judged older people for making (how to allocate their time and money, where to live, what to allow or not allow the kids to do, how to behave at work, etc.) that I now find myself making as a married guy in my mid-30s with four kids. It makes me sad, but on each point I'm like, "Oh, now…

It is interesting but I had the opposite experience.

I think two things led to this.

1. In ante-natal classes the person took us through child development and what children are capable of at different ages. In particular, newborns to about 6-8 months do not even have a concept of themselves as separate people. All they can learn at that time is whether the world is a good place where their needs have a chance of being met. They are incapable of e.g. deliberately crying in order to get picked up. If you do not respond to their suffering you are just going to create a needy and insecure child. So we dodged that bullet.

2. The book "Parent Effectiveness Training" which was a revelation to me. The basic idea is that children own their lives and the consequences of their decisions. Of course there is a limit - you don't let a 3 year old run into traffic. But as far as possible let children make their own decisions. They learn really fast that way. If you micro-manage their lives you end up with 18 year old children.

This does not mean you do not have rules in your house. You are not allowed to play drums at 3am, but that would apply to everyone.

So many parents impose their own choices and preferences on their children for no good reason, and it creates resentment and stops children from learning from their own decisions.

As one example, I have lactose intolerance but I was forced to drink milk, with resulting stomach aches, etc, for many years. I literally knew better than my parents and school in this matter. Similarly if you think you know better than your children in every matter, may I suggest contemplating the spectacle of a 15 year old dressed for a party by Mom.

After our daughter turned 12 we only overrode her on two things - becoming a vegatarian (not allowed until she completed her growth) and a change of school. In both cases we carefully listened to her point of view and considered it, and explained why on these rare occasions we overruled her. Because this was so rare, and handled in a respectful manner, she accepted the decisions.

My own mother waited with great anticipation for the teen rebellion that she had forced her own children into, but it never came with my daughter. Why rebel when there is no need? She never lost the love of learning and ended up with a PhD in a hard science.

One other comment on the OP. There seems to be a wider issue here. If you let children not work, and fail, then the first time there will be a commotion. But if teachers did this consistently, word would get around and it would be accepted. Students whose life goals required passing the test would do the work. But in fact many school subjects are useless to many people and not studying is a rational response to being taught irrelevant nonsense.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing to understand is that the goal in teaching is not to evaluate anyone's skills . The goal in teaching is to make sure that students learn things. From a teacher's perspective, the evaluation part is entirely a hack to make sure that they do.

I think this is a crucial point missing in the above discussion. However, tests should have a place in the teachers perspective, because they improve the learning effect (because they trigger the memory retrieval reliably). So maybe the problem is simply, that tests are linked to grades ;-)

> So maybe the problem is simply, that tests are linked to grades ;-)

I agree with this. Students cannot afford to get questions wrong and learn from their mistakes. A bad grade can alter a person's future, there's too much at risk.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're saying those attempting to restructure the classroom should not take into account this blog post? You seemed to fail to recognize the value of this blog post, or sharing knowledge in general... Oh come on, this isn’t Pedagogy of the Oppressed , it’s a blog post of “things I didn’t understand until my first year on the job”. TFA is a great post! It’s particularly interesting to laymen, and maybe rookie pos…

Get real, man. The whole post is premised with "these are the first things you learn on the job when you try and innovate the classroom." I'll repeat myself again saying that any educator who actually is going to try and change parts of the protocols, procedures and practices for the better (rather than just say it can't be done every-time an idea crosses their path) are either going to learn the hard way and waste t…

> Your argument, if it has any relevance to what I wrote, is that these teachers shouldn't innovate because they don't have experience teaching.

Haha okay, if you want to read my post that way there’s not much anyone can do for you.

If you can’t understand why “visionaries trying to reform education need to read this entry level blog post, and having read it I will now do the exact thing it warns against” gets eyes rolling there isn’t a whole lot else to say. I get that TFA seemed really exciting and innovative to you. It isn’t. It’s a surface-level précis of things any practitioner knows. Which is fine! Because, once again, it’s written for laymen.

If you actually want to dig into the nuts and bolts, here’s a book recommendation that explores some of the points raised in TFA in depth: https://www.amazon.com/Grading-Equity-Matters-Transform-Clas...

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