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We need to reclaim our attention

theguardian.com

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Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#451

Post by thegrimmest »

Apocryphon wrote: post #450
thegrimmest wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that self same freeholder should be ready and willing to negotiate with others to provide whatever goods and services he needs. He shouldn't need a third party to intervene on his behalf, and, knowing that depriving anyone of freedom deprives him as well, should be loathe to apply force to compel the other free party he is negotiating with to meet his terms.

Sounds like then the truly moral position would be to cut out the government entirely. If the freeholder is ready to take on the grave responsibility of ensuring every single interaction, both large and small, are secure, then they should also be responsible for guaranteeing their own rights from all threats large and small, and not abdicate that in favor of a shadowy government.

Believe it or not, in the moment, you can use any sort of force required to defend yourself from violence. This is especially true in places that have castle doctrines and stand-your-ground laws. The government is there mostly to sort it out afterwards, and to discourage aggression by providing an alternative (due process) and punishing transgressors. The punishment of crime is what the government monopolizes, not self defence, since the alternative is generations-long blood feuds.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#452

Post by Apocryphon »

thegrimmest wrote: post #451
Apocryphon wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like then the truly moral position would be to cut out the government entirely. If the freeholder is ready to take on the grave responsibility of ensuring every single interaction, both large and small, are secure, then they should also be responsible for guaranteeing their own rights from all threats large and small, and not abdicate that in favor of a shadowy government.

Believe it or not, in the moment, you can use any sort of force required to defend yourself from violence. This is especially true in places that have castle doctrines and stand-your-ground laws. The government is there mostly to sort it out afterwards, and to discourage aggression by providing an alternative (due process) and punishing transgressors. The punishment of crime is what the government monopolizes, not se…

Why should the government be able to monopolize the punishment of crime, and not those who uphold their own rights?

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#453

Post by thegrimmest »

Apocryphon wrote: post #452
thegrimmest wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, in the moment, you can use any sort of force required to defend yourself from violence. This is especially true in places that have castle doctrines and stand-your-ground laws. The government is there mostly to sort it out afterwards, and to discourage aggression by providing an alternative (due process) and punishing transgressors. The punishment of crime is what the government monopolizes, not se…

Why should the government be able to monopolize the punishment of crime, and not those who uphold their own rights?

Because if they don't maintain law and order they fail to meet the basic definition of government.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#454

Post by Apocryphon »

thegrimmest wrote: post #453
Apocryphon wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the government be able to monopolize the punishment of crime, and not those who uphold their own rights?

Because if they don't maintain law and order they fail to meet the basic definition of government.

Why does there need to be a government at all?

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#456

Post by thegrimmest »

dTal wrote: post #416
thegrimmest wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to justify legalizing theft and fraud - these are most generally justified by property rights, which are somewhat tangential here. Neither of them set a precedent for the government intervening in honest interactions between people. Lots of things are widely considered "bad", that doesn't mean it wouldn't be tyrannical to make them illegal.

You didn't answer. Why do you draw the line there? What's so special about violence that it deserves special attention from the state, while other bad things don't? I see you've also added property rights now, which are a totally separate category from violence. Why these things in particular?

Because violence is horrific in a way that nothing else is. Poverty and illness are facts of nature, no living thing is immune. What's special about violence is that it's perpetrated by other people, people who have the cognitive capacity to understand the suffering they are directly causing.

Violence is fundamentally preventable because people have agency in ways that animals do not. You'll note that only violence with knowledge is considered horrific. For instance, being attacked by a person with the mind of a 4 year old isn't considered nearly as bad as being attacked by an otherwise normal adult. The adult knew what they were doing and did it anyways.

> I see you've also added property rights now, which are a totally separate category from violence

I suppose it stems from the idea of natural rights - ie. what would you be able to do if there were no other people around? Would you be able to put something down and expect to find it where you put it? If so then you have "property rights": the reasonable expectation that your material activities will not be interfered with. The rest of it is mediating how your property rights interact with those of others.

Liberty is basically the idea that you should be able to do anything at all as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others to do the same. The legitimacy of government is derived from its defence of liberty. It's not about preventing "bad things".

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#457

Post by thegrimmest »

dTal wrote: post #415
thegrimmest wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone consents to be murdered, who are we indeed to stop them? My argument doesn't justify non-consensual murder at all however.

It certainly does justify it. And literally everything else. It's an argument against laws of any kind. After all, "good, desirable or natural" are not real. We have no framework to rank desirability of outcome, according to you. The only reasonable way forward is tolerance of the full diversity of belief, right? Including the belief that murder is okay.

Well, if one person doesn't want to be murdered and another wants to murder someone, and these people are equal, then we have a conflict. We should tolerate the full diversity of belief, but we should not tolerate infringement on anyone's liberty.
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