President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#451

Post by inopinatus » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #248

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? The time I spend in the US I had the feeling that you have more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom. Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to d…

> more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom

My experience of the US is similar to yours.

Note that the USA is rather special in how it encodes freedom. There is, after all, literally a big list of guaranteed freedoms. In practice, if something's not on there, then every government and quasi-governmental entity assumes you are not free to do it, or at least, they believe they can decide to stop you.

This is the inverse of almost every construction of freedom that went before it, and your experience arises from that difference. The notoriously vast & byzantine scale of the US Code is another emergent property, it being essentially a salami attack on its own fundamentals.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#452

Post by throwawaylinux » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #351

throwawaylinux wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a large number of bills in US state legislatures aimed at suppressing honest and uncensored discussion of the Tulsa race massacre. Which bills are those?

Let me google that for you https://duckduckgo.com/?q=legislature+bill+crt&t=h_&ia=web

No need to be snarky, I didn't know what term to search for.

This is the first actual bill that comes up from those search results - https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/234...

Now the problem is I'm not a lawyer or expert in reading laws or understanding how they would be interpreted. The bill aims to prevent the following kind of theories being taught, ones that say:

(A) any race is inherently superior or inferior to any other race;

(B) the United States is a fundamentally racist country;

(C) the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States is a fundamentally racist document;

(D) an individual's moral worth is determined by the race of the individual;

(E) an individual, by virtue of the race of the individual, is inherently racist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously; or

(F) an individual, because of the race of the individual, bears responsibility for the actions committed by members of the race of the individual.

This sounds pretty good to me. B and C could be controversial in that those things were true in the past, but they seem to refer to the present tense. So the letter of the law is okay and the rest of the points are banning racist theories which is good, so the spirit of the law seems reasonable too. I don't see how this would be interpreted as banning the teaching of past racism like slavery or segregation or that massacre. But as I said I'm not an expert so I would be interested to know whether that's a real concern.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#453

Post by justicezyx » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #357

toxik wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever you think that you’re on the outside looking in, seeing the world for what it is while others seem blind, you should reconsider your perspective. The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties. I wince when I see quotes like these spoken about a people of literal billions.

>The Chinese people [are] not some herd of sheep without mental faculties. Meta: sure doesn't take much bad faith to sour a good debate! "One bad apple spoils the bunch," they say. One of the two core ideas in 1984 is a) the extreme plasticity of the human mind, and b) that power finds its ultimate expression using that plasticity to cause suffering. The ruling society of 1984, the "inner circle", as represented by O…

The point in 1984 is that *everyone* can fall victim to mental manipulation, and an observer can discover the manipulation easily. Like American sees the hypocrisy of Chinese democracy, and, equally, Chinese seeing the hypocrisy of American one. They are virtually identical in the observation, and both sides can easily convince themselves of their own conviction.

God, I only wish this time the leaders from the both sides are responsible ones, people like Trump on both sides can easily make wars in a wink of eyes with both sides seeing each other this way.

The sideline point is that one is the worst judge of themselves...

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#454

Post by tristor » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #248

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? The time I spend in the US I had the feeling that you have more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom. Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to d…

I don't think you made the comparison between these two events with any ulterior motives, but the subthreads below your comment are interesting and telling in part because a significant number of the comments are parroting each other from users with little history on HN. It feels like this thread may have attracted the attention of the Fifty Cent Army[1].

There are a remarkable number of comments that fall into the same vein, and at least one is a username I recognize from previous threads about China shilling very hard in a pro-CCP way. I wonder if @dang or HN have any processes by which to identify bot / shill accounts and limit them, because it's obvious there's a far larger contingent of these accounts on the site than I originally expected. I guess HN is no longer an unnoticed corner of the Internet where folks can just have normal conversations like it used to be.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#455

Post by wavefunction » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

As you've described yourself, you're more of a shallow cliche of Americans and one that doesn't reflect well on the rest of us. You're as real an American as I am, and no more.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#456

Post by disabled » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #198

It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was called a CIA agent by fellow Purdue students and was reported to the Chinese state, who attempted to silence him by forcefully leaning on his family in Hong Kong. The identities of the bullies is well known and the extent of abuse is borderline criminal. There sho…

The thing that the Purdue University President forgot to mention: Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, gender, pregnancy, or *national origin*.

Honestly, students need to understand that if they are perpetrating this violence (yes, harassment and intimidation, whether or not it is physical, is a form of violence) they will face severe disciplinary action. Also, they need to understand that they are breaking federal law.

Unfortunately, Purdue University likely will not be taking this as seriously as possible. There are so many other public universities that have better formal administrative policies towards this kind of behavior.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#457

Post by stickfigure » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #198

It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was called a CIA agent by fellow Purdue students and was reported to the Chinese state, who attempted to silence him by forcefully leaning on his family in Hong Kong. The identities of the bullies is well known and the extent of abuse is borderline criminal. There sho…

200 Chinese students have no material financial impact in a body of 35,000 students. I'm inclined to take the statement at face value, and won't be surprised if more actions come as they work out the facts.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#458

Post by cloverich » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

citizenkeen wrote: post #321

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Why would you describe black smoke diesel as American?

They are contrasting their viewpoint by identifying some of their other traits in terms of "hard right" characterizations in a somewhat poetic manner, e.g. those that would stereotypically come from someone who would blanket condemn Chinese policy based purely on it not being America + Freedom. i.e. "If even _I_, as someone typically far away from X, think Y, then...". It would be like saying "I own five Tesla's but am a bit skeptical of this whole electric car thing because...""

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#459

Post by chernevik » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

323 wrote: post #386

mmaunder wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinas pandemic outcome remains to be seen. Their zero Covid approach may prove increasingly challenging as new variants become more contagious and the rest of the world takes a maintenance approach. I think a centrally controlled society’s IQ is the sum if it’s leaders. A free society’s IQ is the sum of its people. That makes me optimistic about the prospects for the US.

What is the bandwidth of political leaders in US occupied by? If you can have an abortion or not, who can vote and in what conditions, if vaccines are a good thing or a bad thing. Basically issues which were settled 100 years ago in other places. Meanwhile China built thousands of miles of high-speed train in the last 10 years (while US built basically none), is about to have more navy ships than the US and so on. ht…

The US leaves far more to people outside the government. We get stuff like Space X.

China has profited greatly by allowing its people more economic autonomy, but even the most successful are subject to State control of whatever the State wants to control, whenever the State wants to control it. See Jack Ma.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#460

Post by woodruffw » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

bubblethink wrote: post #385

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> adults representing a national government Legally adults, perhaps, but I think we have a social consensus that most college students are kids. Their brains haven't fully developed. If they're coming out of a brainwashed environment, they may never have been explicitly told that this is wrong; they deserve a second chance. > message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana I agree. My vote would be for a…

>Legally adults, perhaps, but I think we have a social consensus that most college students are kids. US universities are famously litigious and take a hard line stance when it suits them. See Aaron Swartz. So, I don't buy the 'they are still kids' line. That is, I don't condone it, but I don't agree that universities are motivated by this sort of reasoning.

> US universities are famously litigious and take a hard line stance when it suits them. See Aaron Swartz.

MIT was not a party to the lawsuit against Aaron Swartz, nor was even JSTOR. It was brought entirely by the US Attorney for Massachusetts.