Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#451

Post by jasode » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #436

jasode wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that uses the phrase 10x but does not provide any way to quantify it Understand your complaint but "10x" is best interpreted as a figure-of-speech and not an exact mathematical equation. It's just a short & snappy sounding label that's easy-to-say and easy-to-type on the keyboard. (My previous comment about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13753178 ) We use numerical type phrases without quantitative prec…

Most of your examples are commonly used phrases. "10x programmer" is a unique phrase. We don't hear "10x electrical engineer" or "10x politician". Phrases like "decimate", double-down, etc are part of the English language, and is well understood to have multiple meanings. Your other examples (e.g. vi/emacs being a million times better) are examples of random numbers people throw out. Someone will say vi/emacs is a to…

>Most of your examples are commonly used phrases.

Yes, and "10x" is itself also becoming a commonly used phrase that's getting less tied to the math number 10. This thread's extensive non-quantitative usage from many people is evidence of that. (I'm guessing that in a few decades, the bikeshedding about "10x" will eventually stop and it will be accepted as a non-numerical description like "a million times better")

>We don't hear "10x electrical engineer" or "10x politician".

The "10x" is relatively new compared to "double-down" but it's spreading out to other uses besides "10x programmer":

- "10x manager" : https://www.google.com/search?q=%2210x+manager%22

- "10x author" : https://www.amazon.com/10X-Author-Level-Left-Behind/dp/10841...

- "10x " : https://www.hugo.team/10x

- "10x" spreading out to company names, etc : https://www.google.com/search?q=10x

- "10x programming language" : yesterday's HN thread comment example

Why do all the above non-mathematical usages keep happening? Probably because "10x" sounds cool. We're witnessing language evolution as it happens.

>Whereas with 10x, it's always 10x. I don't hear people talk about 3x programmers or 20x programmers.

Sometimes people talk about 100x and 1000x and infinityX to try and emphasize extra rare skills etc. Again, interpreting 1000x literally as 10^3 isn't the intended meaning. And to build on your point... the fact that nobody says "9x programmer" or "11x programmer" but almost always "10x" is actually evidence that it's not trying to communicate exact mathematics.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#452

Post by Shaanie » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

dosethree wrote: post #242

munchbunny wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agreed, I don't know why the industry (or people?) in general have a problem with accepting this abilities gap. I don’t think it’s that people have a problem admitting that there are significant outliers. It’s that there’s a backlash to the fetishization of “hiring 10x programmers” and most people claiming to be one really aren’t. I know I’m good at it, but I am not and will probably never get to 10x on just writin…

If there are 10x engineers, it's a right place, right time situation. Very good engineers with the right experience, luck, a good idea, and the relentless desire to execute. Miss any of those things, and you can still be a a multiplier, just probably not 10x. Even so at my companies the difference between between good engineers and bad is massive (a lot of the difference is talent and motivation). Imagine you had a c…

There's honestly quite a few developers that produce zero or negative value (e.g. by implementing the wrong things, introducing lots of bugs or significant complexity etc). 10x:ing them is not difficult.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#453

Post by UncleOxidant » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

"1. I still don’t know very much"

I've been in the game for almost 30 years. I often feel like I know less than I thought I did 25 years ago, and that I know less as time goes by. I'd also have this as my #1 on the list because it just feels so surprising. I think most of us start out in our 20s thinking that in 30 years we'll have mastered the field, but it definitely doesn't feel like that, not even close.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#454

Post by khazhoux » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

Anyone who denies the existence of the 10x programmer has either simply not encountered one, or is blinded by their own ego. In my 20 years in industry, I can think of maybe 10 engineers I've directly worked with who were an order of magnitude above all their peers in terms of both code volume AND quality.

These are people who will implement a feature with clean code, well commented, well thought-out and meeting the exact need, correctly structured, in the time that the entire rest of the engineering team would still be scratching their head and debating what to do. One guy years ago who refactored the entire backend at a startup in 2 days, then asked "OK, what can I work on now?" Another guy who wrote an IPC system we needed, which I'd expected would take us 6 weeks, and he did it over the weekend (and it worked perfectly). Another who debugged and patched a critical infrastructure problem in a very complex system, in about 2 days... and would do this time and again, just cranking out features and fixes, week after week.

* "Oh, but their code must have been rushed!" It was fast but not rushed. Some of the best code I've seen.

* "Oh, but they didn't consider user requirements." They did.

* "Oh, they must have been insufferable to work with!" For the most part, super friendly and great teammates.

And so on.

So, sorry if it offends, but some people are just much better developers than everyone else around them (including, possibly yourself). I was much happier after I realized and accepted this fact!

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#455

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #454

Anyone who denies the existence of the 10x programmer has either simply not encountered one, or is blinded by their own ego. In my 20 years in industry, I can think of maybe 10 engineers I've directly worked with who were an order of magnitude above all their peers in terms of both code volume AND quality. These are people who will implement a feature with clean code, well commented, well thought-out and meeting the…

[deleted]

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#456

Post by beebmam » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #454

Anyone who denies the existence of the 10x programmer has either simply not encountered one, or is blinded by their own ego. In my 20 years in industry, I can think of maybe 10 engineers I've directly worked with who were an order of magnitude above all their peers in terms of both code volume AND quality. These are people who will implement a feature with clean code, well commented, well thought-out and meeting the…

In my 20 years of industry at both small and large tech companies, I couldn't disagree more with you. I'd also appreciate if you toned down the insults.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#457

Post by ipnon » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #453

"1. I still don’t know very much" I've been in the game for almost 30 years. I often feel like I know less than I thought I did 25 years ago, and that I know less as time goes by. I'd also have this as my #1 on the list because it just feels so surprising. I think most of us start out in our 20s thinking that in 30 years we'll have mastered the field, but it definitely doesn't feel like that, not even close.

The domain of software engineering has almost certainly increased in size and complexity faster than any of us have learned. We must focus on the fundamentals. All of the new languages and architectures are a storm hovering over a bedrock of empirical computer science.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#458

Post by khazhoux » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

beebmam wrote: post #456

khazhoux wrote: post #454

Anyone who denies the existence of the 10x programmer has either simply not encountered one, or is blinded by their own ego. In my 20 years in industry, I can think of maybe 10 engineers I've directly worked with who were an order of magnitude above all their peers in terms of both code volume AND quality. These are people who will implement a feature with clean code, well commented, well thought-out and meeting the…

In my 20 years of industry at both small and large tech companies, I couldn't disagree more with you. I'd also appreciate if you toned down the insults.

It should not be an insult to be told that there are people more skilled than you, though. It is hubris to think otherwise.

Are you saying in 20 years, you haven't met any engineers that were head and shoulders noticeably more productive than their peers, in terms of code volume+quality?

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#459

Post by DantesKite » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #349

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #310

> “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” The fact that this attitude is common scares me when I'm doing interviews. Time off is incredibly important to me. What's the use of making a great income if you can't get the time off to enjoy it? The culture about the use of PTO varies wildly between companies. A friend of mine worked somewhere that supposedly gave 20 days…

Your quote of the article made me think I was going to hate the advice, but then I realized you quoted it out of context, here's the full quote: > People might claim they have “signals” for these things… “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” But these are all bullshit. If you’re using signals like these you’re just guessing and turning away good candidates

That’s a pretty huge distinction. Can’t believe he misrepresented the author like that.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#460

Post by ipnon » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #444

> 19. Interviews are almost worthless for telling how good of a team member someone will be I've been pondering the wisdom of having engineers do interviews at all. Interviewing, and getting someone to reveal their hand to you, is a massively specific skill, one that few get good at, let alone software engineers. Why is it that we think a 2 hour course on ethics and STAR can make someone capable of telling the differ…

My Markov chain hiring process: Flip a coin. Heads, hire them on the spot. Tails, give them the usual guantlet of algorithm problems and coding challenges.