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China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

dailybusinessgroup.co.uk

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Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#451

Post by slg »

fouric wrote: post #429
slg wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an overly aggressive tone that will cause knee-jerk pushback, but there is an argument that it is exactly the thing we should expect of our government, to correct for externalities. This is effectively not that different than a company dumping chemical in the local river rather than disposing of them properly. They are encroaching on my rights to a livable planet for their own personal financial gain.

The GP comment falsely implies that PoW is the only kind of cryptocurrency (and, well, the obnoxious and anti-intellectual tone). There are many reasons to dislike crypto in general, but "it destroys the environment" only applies to PoW-based systems and not crypto in general. Also, you should read the guidelines: "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.…

What percentage of cryptocurrencies usage is not PoW? What are the negative environmental impacts of the other approaches? Being better than PoW doesn’t necessarily mean they stopped being wasteful.

I rephrased that first sentence to remove the reference to HN voting. I was simply remarking how the tone will cause people to object to it quicker regardless of the merit of the underlying thought.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#452

Post by reedjosh »

lottin wrote: post #427
DethNinja wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming soon to a country nearby you… Plebs cannot be allowed to have access to sound money, otherwise financial parasites can’t exists.

Are you sure you got this right? Keep in mind that the only way to make money with bitcoin is literally by taking it away from other "investors".

Or transacting for goods and services. You know, like in an economy. I just bought coffee with it.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#453

Post by monological »

carnitine wrote: post #430
monological wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think the dollar keeps its value? Do you understand that the reason it has value is because it’s backed by the US military, which provides peace and stability for industry to consume a vast amount of energy to produce goods that get shipped around using fossil fuel? Have you calculated the total energy expenditure of the entire US financial system, direct and indirect, and then compare it to proof-of-work…

I don’t get it. All of that energy expenditure not only backs the dollar, but as you say also provides goods, services and a high standard of living to millions of people. The energy expenditure of Bitcoin only backs Bitcoin.

If crypto was actually adopted as a means of buying and selling real world goods, instead of just being held as a speculative asset, then it would consume much less energy and be more efficient than the entire system, namely the military, that props up the value of the dollar. And that’s just the US military. Of course, the reason why you’re able to mine in the first place is because we have peace, due to the military. So calculating becomes a little more complicated than just crypto consumption versus military consumption.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_usage_of_the_United_S...

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/bitcoin-emits-less-than-2-of...

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#454

Post by toomuchtodo »

reedjosh wrote: post #450
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh.. I don't want to diminish the impact of Chinese action, but US not so long ago banned owning gold ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act ) by individuals. It is only recently that this got relaxed. Government can and do whatever the populace will bear.

Lets not bear this then. Central Bank Digital Currency is just around the corner if crypto is banned. CBDC is an authoritarian's wet dream. Speak against the government--you're no longer allowed to transact in society. Retroactive tax...boom, negative balance.

What do you propose as a solution for central banks and monetary policy attempting to operate in structural stagnation [1]? Do you believe digital tulips will maintain their value as real productivity declines due to demographics? Physical cash can be inflated with relatively the same ease as a CBDC through QE. You're seeking a level of control and authority of monetary policy only accessible to nation states.

We agree on the problem, but not the solution. Technology does not solve challenges at the people/politics OSI layer.

[1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/700-year-decline-of-interes...

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#456

Post by gfodor »

arcticbull wrote: post #416
nightski wrote: post #336

Wow, imagine living in a country where the legal financial assets you own can be turned criminal where accessing them is punished with hard labor. Sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

Imagine living in a civilized country that can't bring itself to ban a massive distributed Ponzi scheme with huge environmental consequences. Bitcoin alone uses about 1/10th as much energy as the entire world's concrete production. Even if it were to transition entirely to renewable energy it also generates as much e-waste as an entire first-world country. These things actually have huge meaningful state security ris…

It's going to look a lot less like a Ponzi scheme if/when the dollar collapses.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#457

Post by zuminator »

reedjosh wrote: post #452
lottin wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you got this right? Keep in mind that the only way to make money with bitcoin is literally by taking it away from other "investors".

Or transacting for goods and services. You know, like in an economy. I just bought coffee with it.

You made money with bitcoin by buying coffee with it?

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#458

Post by arcticbull »

monological wrote: post #453
carnitine wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get it. All of that energy expenditure not only backs the dollar, but as you say also provides goods, services and a high standard of living to millions of people. The energy expenditure of Bitcoin only backs Bitcoin.

If crypto was actually adopted as a means of buying and selling real world goods, instead of just being held as a speculative asset, then it would consume much less energy and be more efficient than the entire system, namely the military, that props up the value of the dollar. And that’s just the US military. Of course, the reason why you’re able to mine in the first place is because we have peace, due to the militar…

How can you possibly imagine adoption of Bitcoin would end the US army? The US army existed for hundreds of years on the gold standard. World wars were fought on the gold standard.

Exactly, step my step, please explain how adoption of bitcoin would reduce military energy consumption.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#459

Post by ravenstine »

hh3k0 wrote: post #398
gfodor wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto eats the world now if you like it or not. The climate will be fine, because newer systems don’t burn excessive energy. But the CCP fighting the tide is great news, since communist regimes usually fall by trying to clamp down on things beyond their control.

China is not a communist country, their economic system has been state capitalism ever since the official introduction of the 中国特色社会主义 theory in 1987.

These terms for economic theory are, for all intents and purposes, completely useless.

Has there ever been a communist country that lasted 5 minutes without a form of capital?

Was the American economy ever a "free market"?

While I agree that China isn't communist in the term's strictest sense, it ultimately doesn't matter. Systems that can't adapt eventually collapse, which is why no one word can really describe economic systems or their nations. I've been told on HN that what I'm saying is a "no true scotsman" fallacy, yet when people insist that America has "free market capitalism" or that China is communist because CCP has "communist" in the name, they're essentially making an only-true scotsman fallacy.

Personal freedoms aside, it all comes down to is how involved a government is with its private sector how much value it extracts (overtly or covertly). Everything else is fluff. Nobody really cares about personal freedom or "owning the means of production". It's all about the level of centralized control (the input) and where the energy of that system goes (the output). To say that anything is "communist" or "capitalist" is a dismissal of the inevitable nuance.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#460

Post by notapenny »

thirdvect0r wrote: post #399
nightski wrote: post #336

Wow, imagine living in a country where the legal financial assets you own can be turned criminal where accessing them is punished with hard labor. Sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

Imagine living in a country that allows you to destroy the environment for a fake currency. Your worldview is ridiculous.

Well just because one thing in a space isn't great, it doesn't mean that they all are. There are plenty of alternatives to BTC for example that are much "greener". Granted, crypto is a relatively new technology and some of that stuff needs to be figured out. And whether or not its fake, is in the eye of the beholder. It has value, because we pretend it has value, but that's true for many things. Maybe not be so judgemental of other people's worldviews.
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