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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

451–460 of 538 posts

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#451
post #355

Heartbreaking. I can't even talk about Tiananmen with Chinese -born friends under 40 in the US or Europe. TikTok and WeChat has achieved their goals of driving historical memory from their brains. And if I even mention Taiwan within seconds I am hearing the term "renegade province." It seems for now possible to create a true virtual totalitarian state in the 21st century. It's chains are forged out of "Xi thought" ap…

The apps have nothing to do with their views on Taiwan.

It's impossible to say how much the apps have really affected individual viewpoints, but it's very obvious that the company has an agenda. [1]

[1]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#452
post #431
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some think that if the US extended their protection to Taiwan, Beijing would not attempt to take Taiwan. > What next? What is there to prevent China from trying again and again and again? > The only way the regime can be changed is from the inside. Worth noting that the Chinese Army “may not be willing to fight” (‘pay the bill’ for the aggressive stance of the Foreign Ministry). [1] If the Chinese Army did not scor…

I predict: 1) China won't attack Taiwan until it can be assured a swift victory. 2) China will reach that state within our lifetimes. WWII was won, in part, by US manufacturing prowess. China has that advantage. It's military is currently behind in equipment, but if it chose to, it could build a blue water navy or whatever else it wants in record time. It also has the political ability to engage in major projects lik…

I either agree or think your predictions make sense, but I think your premises that lead to them are a little bit suspect.

China doesn't have the same manufacturing prowess that the US did because of its location. In World War II, the US was essentially an untouchable supply chain with access to both oceans. It could fight Japan and supply Russia through the west if necessary, and it could fight Germany and supply England and Russia through the eat too.

In China's case, the main issue is that while the factories are certainly humming right along, they need to import food, oil, and other raw materials. Where do those come from? Certainly Russia, despite its blustering, isn't going to do too much to help China because that gives the U.S. an easy excuse to attack Russia in the east. Expect Russia to sit this one out and maybe screw around in a inconsequential way in Europe at best.

Will China then get resources from neighbors? Sure. Except now they have to transport all of these raw materials to the east coast of China where all the factories are. Lots of lead times here.

Meanwhile, the US can simply purchase the same materials from untouched supply chains in Europe and South America.

> it could build a blue water navy or whatever else it wants in record time.

I very much doubt this. And this has to happen years (decades?) before a war breaks out. China would have to build these ships in docks on the shore, which would be vulnerable to any number of U.S. bombing campaigns from strategic locations (Guam, Japan, carrier fleet, etc.). Not to say why wouldn't the U.S. also build hypersonic missiles?

> It also has the political ability to engage in major projects like these (see respective COVID19 responses).

Sure, that's always the general strength of the authoritarian regime. The ability to issue dictates. But that's also the great weakness, because you can go down a very wrong path and you won't know until its too late. Japan experienced this in World War II.

But the U.S. (and allies) would undoubtedly be united in a response to a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. The center-left, center, and entire right wing of the US for sure would be. So I'm not sure I'd look at the U.S.'s COVID-19 response and generalize from that.

> I suspect Chinese military leadership is far more competent than US or EU. The cream of the crop in the West doesn't go into the military (see Afghanistan for an good example of how US armed forces are managed).

What do you base this on? If nothing else, the United States and European Union (NATO allies) have been engaging in actual joint operations all over the world for the past 20-some years.

And the U.S. fought a different kind of war in Afghanistan than it would the one it might have to fight against China in the Pacific. First, the U.S. occupied the country just fine for 20 years, and then got tired of it. The U.S. also operated with very strict rules of engagement. Like, shoot at US soldiers then throw your Ak-47 in the weeds and say it wasn't you and nobody could do anything since you didn't have your weapon on you. Iraq looks to be a better example but neither should be relied upon as a good case.

> I also think we will see major disruptions in military from autonomous and semi-autonomous machines which will really reduce the US lead. DJI is headquartered in China, as are many of the other players here.

Who cares about DJI?

> If heave machines like carriers are obsoleted, the US advantage might turn into an expensive liability.

Weren't you saying that China would build a blue-water navy in record time? What would they do with this obsolete navy?

But the U.S. doesn't need to keep its carrier groups within range of any Chinese action to cause lots of problems for China. A naval blockade, they can go sink ships in ports that are friendly to China but aren't in China, etc.

> The Chinese military also has more manpower.

True that quantity does have a quality all of its own, but it seems like a bottle neck to me. Are they going to load up boat after boat and sail soldiers to Taiwan? Seems like a pretty expensive offensive and will Chinese moral handle losing soldiers in boats going to attack Taiwan? Lots of uncertainties.

Anyway, my point here was just to provide some counterpoints to some of yours here. Frankly, this is all really stupid.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#453
post #396
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some think that if the US extended their protection to Taiwan, Beijing would not attempt to take Taiwan. > What next? What is there to prevent China from trying again and again and again? > The only way the regime can be changed is from the inside. Worth noting that the Chinese Army “may not be willing to fight” (‘pay the bill’ for the aggressive stance of the Foreign Ministry). [1] If the Chinese Army did not scor…

War is tough and horrible. Any person can see that. There are many complex reasons why the larger Afghan army could not stand up to the Taliban, and while the situation is not comparable at all to the Chinese military, my point is that around the world, there are military units that aren't prepared or willing to fight the wars that their politicians wage. I do wager that China's PLA would win a war that involves Taiw…

You are seeing too much from a modern occidental perspective although I dont know where you are from.

No PTSD in the divisions that were driving over their own citizens in this event: https://imgur.com/bGP9oKf

Also no hesitation, dissent of any kind is known, from the internal departments implementing it in Hong Kong, Tibet, or Xinjiang.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#454
post #413
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're talking about a factory that employs willing people Prisoners forced to choose between harsh detention or menial factory work, are not “willing”. This is the same argument made by people against minimum wage increases - “why do low wage workers do such jobs, they have a choice”. The USA also has the same kind of prison labor, and inmates are forced to work for the profit of companies and the state, while re…

>Prisoners forced to choose between harsh detention or menial factory work, are not “willing” I mean that the factories employ regular employees as well as those threatened to be sent back to detention. I don't see why both groups of people should be punished so that people thousands of miles away can feel a better conscience. >I’m talking about the general global populace waking up to the fact that their goods are m…

> I don't see why both groups of people should be punished so that people thousands of miles away can feel a better conscience.

What do you mean? This thread is about how China is violently dealing with dissenters within Asia (HK is not China). We’re talking about how a ban on slave labor Chinese goods could solve things.

> Has anything like that has ever happened in history?

Never before in history has the global manufacturing industry concentrated into one region (China).

> I don't see what more awareness would get us.

Awareness would instigate change, and China would be forced to stop utilizing prisoner-slave labor.

> people thousands of miles away can feel a better conscience

I’m really concerned by the level of dismissiveness you’re showing. Not sure if this discussion is leading anywhere.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#455
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, it's well known in tech that you're putting your job/livelihood at risk by speaking contrary to the political groupthink. Many people who didn't vote for Clinton or Biden are effectively in career hiding. Threatening someone's job over their beliefs/opinions is very effective censorship.

When in history hasn't this been the case?

Never.

People are demanding access to an audience like it's a right, and saying their votes don't matter if they can't reach an audience. It's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#456
post #436
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is, the CCP sees Taiwan as theirs when in reality China belongs to Taiwan. It would seem a treaty acknowledging Taiwan as an independent sovereign would be an ideal outcome, but it's weird to see nations express wounded pride, imo

That would be like saying the US belongs to the Native Indians, the Vikings or the British. It might be true, but what is the point exactly? Like it or not but Might Is Right and in less than 20 years Might equals PRC above all else (including the US, yes).

Indeed. Despite all our efforts to improve, we seem inevitably stuck at might makes right.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Taiwan with Republic of China (i.e. formal name) and it isn't nearly as astonishing anymore isn't it.

Deep. Bet you think New England belongs to the British.

No, but Republic/Kingdom of England is way more confusing innit.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#458
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If China invaded Taiwan, Europe would stand together with the US on any retaliation. It would be the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait all over again, geopolitically. China would be cut off dead from the global economy, no matter the cost. I don’t think it would be practical to liberate Taiwan, but China would be ruined.

China is not Iraq. It's insane to compare the two. Europe was okay with the first invasion of Iraq because they frankly had very little to lose and a lot to gain. Meanwhile suiciding the EU economy by cutting off Chinese exports would hurt the EU a lot more than it would hurt China and certainly much more than the invasion of Kuwait. In any case I'd recommend reading what Chinese generals write on the subject. For th…

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's partly due Chinese brainwashing, and partly due to American brainwashing. Imagine whenever an American expat talks to a foreigner, which happens daily, someone mentions racism in US. Very soon people will get really sick and tired of hearing about it, and will emotionally deny/downplay its existence.

What’s funny is the most racist interactions I have had in professional situations were with Chinese businessmen. China is exceptionally racist. But they do try to cudgel America with it repeatedly.

And evicting tons of black people.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"China is the only country in the world that produces everything it needs for daily operations, without a single exception, in one way or another." ...produces finished goods. China cannot do this without massive imports of raw materials copper, iron ore, coal, etc. China has effectively colonized Africa for access to said raw materials. Belt and Road is a way to set up overland routes to avoid any naval blockades.

> China has effectively colonized Africa Where do you you get this crap from? I live in Africa and I have never been told what to do by a Chinese official or business - or even a local official actin on the instructions of a mandarin. Unless you have watered 'colonisation' down to 'Chinese interests own some stuff in parts of Africa'. Which - to indulge my woke hat - pretty offensive to people who lived under actual…

That's fair, don't understand the downvotes. The thing is colonisation now extends to things like believing western science and liking western music. It's become watered down to just mean any form of developed world influence.
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