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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#451

Post by acituan »

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #221
version_five wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. No doubt this will be the case for some. So, you've found a logical flaw in people's stated reasons for not wanting a vaccine. How does that help anything? In these kinds of debates, the actual goals or beliefs of both sides often differ from what they say. For example, the government being able…

I recent came across a technique for having a more substantial discussion and it was to ask: "Well, what would it take for you to change your mind?" Not that this is a silver bullet that automatically leads to peace and harmony, but it's a step in the right direction.

> I recent came across a technique...

The moment you start talking about techniques you've already objectified the person across you to something to be finessed over, and as such less than a full person.

So many of our recent social-media extremized public debates escalate to the point of denying or diminishing the other side's personhood. They are an "obstacle" to overcome for some greater purpose, and thus we "must" manipulate, coerce or the very least impress conclusions down their throats.

The meta-context is that today we are all more psychologically fragile and the breadth of data points we have to reconcile gets wider (in no small part thanks to engagement metrics optimizations). We all turn into fanatics of some sort or other, fueled by this anxiety, including that of self-doubt. At no point we are incentivized to participate in the process of rationality together, we're only incentivized to willfully assert our own conclusions.

I see most of the "resistance" as an acting out as a protest for having been left out of this process, including having been honored in anxieties. Notice I have said nothing about the truth value of conclusions, nor am trying to draw a false equivalency of "all-sides-ism", because the sense of participation, or lack thereof, is orthogonal to the truth of content, but hurts just as much when neglected.

We've forgot how to be a fellowship of people who share similar fates and see each other as such, we've turned into mere proposition debating machines.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#452

Post by sib »

thehappypm wrote: post #321
orangegreen wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about you. It's about preventing other, more vulnerable people from getting sick. Living in a society means giving up some of your freedoms in exchange for security, and getting vaccinated as a way to help other people should be part of that exchange.

I don't agree with this, in general. We shouldn't give up our freedoms. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." (Benjamin Franklin) We should be motivated by a desire to help one another, and resist when freedoms are removed. That being said, if businesses want to exercise their freedoms to make life more difficult for the unvaccinated, s…

I'm pretty sure that Old Ben understood that, in order to live in society, he had to give up his freedom to steal, rape, and murder.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#453

Post by jaywalk »

anonymouse008 wrote: post #97
bart_spoon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which still wouldn't be a logical argument, given that the same applies regarding long-term health outcomes regarding getting sick with Covid. But I suspect you are right.

100% this. Which is why the only group of people I will not question their vaccine hesitancy are those already recovered from Covid direct infection.

Thank you. Studies have shown that people who were previously infected with Covid tend to experience worse side-effects from the vaccines than those who were not, and the actual benefits from the vaccine for those people are questionable at best.

Natural immunity is a thing, just like it always has been. I've heard all of the arguments about why nobody wants to widely acknowledge it, but I just can't agree with them.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#454

Post by CogitoCogito »

Grim-444 wrote: post #439
albatross13 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm already triple vaxxed (booster), but there are plenty of aspects to this that help drive people's fear: - Phase 3 trials for Pfizer not complete until May 2023: ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728 ) - Control group(s) were given vaccines after 14 days: ( https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... ) - Pfizer generates 1.9bn in revenue off of 100m doses, just in the USA alone, cre…

I know very little about this, but could someone give a good explanation on how is a drug officially approved for mass use when the manufacturer of the drug still hasn't finished their testing?

It has emergency approval. The CDC decided the result of waiting for a full approval would likely cost more than allowing it early.

Also to be fair it's not like they just rushed it out the door. There are probably very few things on the market (short of fully approved pharmaceuticals) that have been through more testing than these "rushed" vaccines.

edit: https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emerge...

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#455

Post by hypocritepledge »

yupper32 wrote: post #387
thepasswordis wrote: post #200

People don’t want to take the vaccine because others are trying to force them to. They would say “it’s not FDA approved!” not as the core of their hesitancy, but because they were trying to be appeal to pro-vax peoples decision making framework. I don’t think we should be able to require them to. To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities wo…

> the weird, Orwellian ways that the government talks about it, has turned me against the booster. You desperately need to take a step back and look at yourself and how you evaluate things. You decided to go against the booster because of your feelings, not because of science. You want government decisions to be guided by science, and yet you are very clearly anti-science with your decision making. > To many of you h…

"the scientific community"... you mean the pharma companies who developed this vaccine, right?

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#456

Post by dr_dshiv »

albatross13 wrote: post #430
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

I'm already triple vaxxed (booster), but there are plenty of aspects to this that help drive people's fear: - Phase 3 trials for Pfizer not complete until May 2023: ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728 ) - Control group(s) were given vaccines after 14 days: ( https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... ) - Pfizer generates 1.9bn in revenue off of 100m doses, just in the USA alone, cre…

>1.9bn off of 100m doses

20 bucks? Cheep! Hopefully this drives up vaccine investment.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#457

Post by jsrjenkins »

SantalBlush wrote: post #179
deeg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"mostly meaningless" is an overstatement. The FDA oversees a lot of drug applications and gets it right a vast majority of the time. No human endeavor is perfect; if there's evidence that 20% of approvals are wrong then I'll agree that there's a problem.

>No human endeavor is perfect This should be posted to the front page of the site. I get so tired of seeing comments pointing out some flaw in an institution and concluding that the institution is therefore useless. It really is lazy thinking.

It is also lazy thinking to say that since it is approved by an institution it must be good.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#458

Post by learc83 »

supportlocal4h wrote: post #155
ceejayoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, we don't have much info on the long-term health outcomes of getting COVID , either. It's like worrying about the long-term impact of breathing fire extinguisher powder while being engulfed by flames.

More like being inundated by smoke. My town is currently experiencing intermittent days of smokiness from fires burning 100s of miles away. People are dying in those fires. Homes are being destroyed. But the local fire department isn't doing anything about it. Nobody around here is installing sprinklers as a precaution. They act like there is no fire at all. Covid is a serious thing. But "engulfed by flames" is the e…

My wife is a children's ER doctor. They are now seeing all patients up to 25 because the adult ER can't handle the number of COVID patients. The pediatric ICU is also now full (in contrast to the earlier COVID waves were virtually no children required treatment).

She's never had to do that because of a bad flu season. More than 90% of the adults in the hospital for COVID and 100% of the kids are unvaccinated.

People wouldn't even be discussing shutting down schools and businesses to get this under control if we had a 90% vaccination rate.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#459

Post by ruffrey »

albatross13 wrote: post #430
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

I'm already triple vaxxed (booster), but there are plenty of aspects to this that help drive people's fear: - Phase 3 trials for Pfizer not complete until May 2023: ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728 ) - Control group(s) were given vaccines after 14 days: ( https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/9691430... ) - Pfizer generates 1.9bn in revenue off of 100m doses, just in the USA alone, cre…

Is $19 per dose expensive? Not knowing anything about pharma costs, it seems about what it'd expect. Especially compared to the economic savings.
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