Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#451

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #426

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to make too much of this, but it is possible that you are a part of or have rather eclectic social circle. My personal advice would not be to extrapolate to the entire society. That said, I would welcome a citation supporting this assertion. My personal experience is very different and I do not want to swap anecdata.

I'm not sure which parts do you find questionable. The common geopolitical interests - true as long as you believe Poland is more comfortable with the West rather than in "Eurasian Union". Nordic countries are way more liberal, but they are wary of Russia. Historically Russia was often in conflict with Poland. Scandinavian Peninsula can be a great obstacle to Russia if it wants to expand west. It threatens sea routes…

I was referring to Poland, but I am now even more intrigued as I never explored Hungary's history as much. Thank you for sharing the books -- I added them to my reading list.

Can you expand on the Poland and Finland?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#452

Post by nindalf » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #339

peteretep wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off ... they have large televisions ... through pure boredom/decadence they were radicalised ... about things they largely don't fully grasp 8/10 top parody comment. You could have strengthened it by suggesting they turn to brioche if they don't have enough bread to eat though.

Please address parent's post in good faith. The point he was not outlandish or imponderable.

I agree with the parent's post FWIW. However, there is a strong tendency in mainstream thought to have great deference to "the People", however you define it. The voice of the People is the voice of God, in fact. So for a person to claim that well off people turned to radical thought out of boredom and ignorance might be correct, but would be considered not just outlandish, as you put it, but outright heresy.

It's not just the UK. It's the US and every other place. Trump wins 46% of the popular vote in 2016 and suddenly there's a deluge of think pieces about how people are hurting and what not. Yeah maybe. But there's a lot of folks out there who love voting for a guy who "triggers libs" and normalizes pussy grabbing. And we're not allowed to say this, because again, it's heresy in a democracy to imply that a large segment of voters could be ignorant or stupid or racist.

Another example, this time with vaccines. One person decides not to get a life saving vaccine because he was duped by misinformation online - he's an idiot. 30% of the population swallow the same bullshit - they have valid concerns that we need to empathise with and assuage. If they choose not to get vaccinated, we have to accept their choice. We shouldn't require vaccine passports because it would hurt their feelings and their ability to transmit diseases to their fellow citizens.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#453

Post by jollybean » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

mariusor wrote: post #444

jollybean wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does the EU justify it's legal supremacy? Where do they get that right? By treaty? Or perhaps the European Court of Justice simply 'ruled' that it's laws were 'supreme' in a bizarre act of defining it's own jurisdiction outside of treaty agreements? Europeans never agreed to give the ECJ supremacy. The ECJ just 'took' that power. It's a baffling bit of legal history [1][2] and it demonstrates just how powerfu…

In your post you seem to imply that European Law has precedence over national laws in all cases. As your first link details a couple paragraphs down, it's not so, it only covers those where nations submit to EU sovereignty explicitly: > It should be noted that the primacy of EU law only applies where EU countries have ceded sovereignty to the EU — fields such as the single market, environment, transport, etc. However…

1) True - but was 'sovereignty ceded'? By legislative vote? Referendum? Treaty?

Not so much. It was 'ceded' when the ECJ 'took' the power. 'Ceding' wasn't a vote or referendum, it was more or less recognizing the ECJ's power grab. Justices in the national courts started 'recognizing' the ruling, and because France has a weird constitutional basis in 1958 which recognizes treaties above their own law ... ECJ becomes the supreme court.

Nobody voted for it. There was no specific legislation. There was no specific treaty. It just happened like legal dominos falling over one another after a niche court ruling.

In Germany, we are not really sure what the situation is. The Germans said that their federal court could 'review' ECJ rulings, but never did. So what is the legal standing? Well the FCC (Germany) finally did take an ECJ case to task in 2020 and now ECJ Supremacy will be tested.

It's basically crazy that in 2021 nobody really knows who the Supreme Court is in Europe and in what areas. Here is the case. [1]

By the way - the French recognition of ECJ rulings depends on reciprocity, meaning, they only respect the rulings if the other states do. If Germany decides that it's courts have jurisdiction in Germany ... then this puts France's recognition of ECJ in jeopardy. (They did a constitutional review 20 years ago and had to ensure this 'reciprocity' which will be called into question by this Germany 2020 FCC case.)

It's basically kind of absurd that there is this much ambiguity in one of the major pillars of liberal democracy.

2) Yes, as you point out, the ECJ specific areas, but notably, the 'The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union' is a vague, and therefore very widely scoping document. In Canada, after the introduction of such a charter, a whole host of laws where overthrown and the Supreme Court changes their minds about things and do as they please with vague wording such as 'freedom of expression and conscience' etc.. So this brings up some complicated questions for the EU as well on this. Rulings on this charter can delve into anything.

[1] https://www.clydeco.com/en/insights/2020/05/germanys-federal...

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#454

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

kristjank wrote: post #226

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

True. But EU also repeatedly ignores a decent chunk of people that want a stable social state without LGBTQ agitprop and unlimited illegal immigration. I have a hunch that the western left wing would have much more support if they focused on the wellbeing of the common worker, not on the countless minorities. Instead the choice always seems to be between a reactionary right-wing degenerate and a hyper-progressive lef…

> But EU also repeatedly ignores a decent chunk of people that want a stable social state without LGBTQ agitprop and unlimited illegal immigration

Can you give me some examples of the EU doing this?

My understanding is that nothing has happened on migration because there is no agreement.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#455

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #296

pell wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

> he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the media, academia This is precisely where I claim you've gone wrong. > NGOs NGOs are not democratic institutions per se. NGOs can be incredibly detrimental to societies, whether intentionally or through incompetence, and can be used by billionaires to social engineer societies as they see fit. > the media The media are not democrati…

[deleted]

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#456

Post by f6v » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #220

f6v wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of implies people can’t think for themselves. By this logic, the liberal countries are only liberal because the media tells the people to be liberal. Maybe you’re right.

Nope, because there are different media available, and one can watch/listen/read those. In Orban like states you loose that free access to all media and you are forced into the state one. For those that are not aware countries that were under former Soviet boots all have a state television, which is the default source of information for older people (they are used to it), whichever party wins the elections sets up th…

> For those that are not aware countries that were under former Soviet boots all have a state television

Most countries in the world have state-owned television.

> In Orban like states you loose that free access to all media and you are forced into the state one.

So many people own smartphones and have internet access. Even older ones, who learn to use them faster than PCs. People can consume whatever media they want. And people can certainly teach their parents how to consume non-government news.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#457

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

jq-r wrote: post #231

sharikone wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has actually elicited a response. Through many mechanisms now big countries in Europe have gained much more power than before, when the model was very egalitarian. And you can look at it in a very different light if you see it as Hungary becoming a small vassal state of Germany (an autocracy helps it to stay that way, and German manufacturers want the situation to remain like this) rather than a "rogue fascist" st…

If you put it that way, the "war" has already been won by Germany/Austria here in Croatia. There is next to no Italian influence (only in one small region). Everything else is German/Austrian owned. Banks, Telecoms, big business, construction etc. Most of the houses on the coast and islands are theirs as well. EU needs our country just to be minimally stable. Stable enough so millions of foreigners can come to their…

As someone living in Austria, I noticed this as well. Rich Austrians own all big businesses and all desirable properties in Croatia.

I wonder what will happen to Croatia, politically, in the future, when the young there find themselves priced out of their own country by richer foreigners.

Seems like uncontrolled capitalism has enabled a form of economic colonialism, as proven further by the money printer let loose during Coving, making the rich richer and the poor poorer, to which the response is always "that's just how the free market works".

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#458

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

jsbdk wrote: post #9

NicoJuicy wrote: post #2

Orbán is a cancer on Europe, i really the EU has a decent response this time.

I'm not defending his actions as I have no horse in this race, but he seems to have the support of his country - why should the EU be above that?

This doesn’t matter if the elected winner is on the wrong team. See: the history of Egypt in the last 30 years.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#459

Post by joelbluminator » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

dogorman wrote: post #412

joelbluminator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships, actaully all of them: Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Morocco (arguably, let's agree it's not a liberal democracy) and so on and so on. There are zero democracies in the area. So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; it's not like the oppositions to these dictators are any bette…

> Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships Not just in the region. In the 1970s, Israel worked with apartheid South Africa to develop nuclear weapons. South Africa has subsequently been disarmed, but Israel has not been. Incidentally, in 1963 JFK was trying to stop Israel's nuclear weapons program because American intelligence had failed to turn up any evidence that other countries in th…

Well times changed, Iran is very close to nuclear weapons

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#460

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #452

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please address parent's post in good faith. The point he was not outlandish or imponderable.

I agree with the parent's post FWIW. However, there is a strong tendency in mainstream thought to have great deference to "the People", however you define it. The voice of the People is the voice of God, in fact. So for a person to claim that well off people turned to radical thought out of boredom and ignorance might be correct, but would be considered not just outlandish, as you put it, but outright heresy. It's no…

You touched on a lot of important things and I will try to respond to all of them without distracting myself.

I posit to you that 'people hurting and what not' are not merely think pieces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy ). I remember driving through PA months before Trump's election and recall seeing some of the sadder signs you can read including "Save us Trump". It is not "triggering the libs"; it is genuine despair of no options other than triggering the libs. It is important to understand where it comes from, if one is to have a hope to counter it in any meaningful way. Just using that slogan is a mental shortcut that undermines our discourse.

I do not see that understanding. What I see is more targeted messaged intended to inflame pre-existing passions. I do not see discussion. I see bumper stickers.

As for democracy, there is an argument to be made that it relies on educated and engaged populace. I am not the biggest fan, because US has neither and a lot of ways to manipulate public opinion are well understood now. And yet, it is still a better option than benevolent dictator, monarchy or some sort of theocracy.

Now, we can quibble over whether US is a democracy, which in itself is a discussion for a couple of pages.

I do think you have a point with vaccines, but I want you to consider the question of choice, mandates and so on in regards to government imposing choices upon you. What is the lesser evil here?