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GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

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Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#451

An interesting impact of this discussion is, for me: within my team at work, we're likely to forbid any use of Github co-pilot for our codebase, unless we can get a formal guarantee from Github that the generated code is actually valid for us to use. By the way, code generated by Github co-pilot is likely incompatible with Microsoft's Contribution License Agreement [1]: "You represent that each of Your Submission is…

> forbid any use of Github co-pilot for our codebase,

I have recommended as such to the CTO and other senior engineers at the startup I work at, pending some clear legal guidance about the specific licensing.

My casual read of Copilot suggests that certain outputs would be clear and visible derivatives of GPL code, which would be _very bad_ in court- probably? Some other company can have fun in court and make case law. We have stuff to build.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good idea in theory, but the smarter the agent gets, the less direct the derivation and the harder to explain it (and to check the explanation). We're already a long way from a nearest-neighbor model. Yet the equivalent problem for humans gets addressed by the clean-room approach. This seems unfair.

> the smarter the agent gets, the less direct the derivation and the harder to explain it at some point it should be different enough to stand on its own, right? then we have no problem with copyrights

Yeah, also in principle. But the cleanroom approach isn't technically required for humans either -- it became standard because the legal notion of a derived work is very fuzzy and gradually changing, and lawsuits are expensive and chancy, so you want a process that's provably not infringing. "Yeah I learned some general ideas from this code, but I didn't derive any of my code from theirs" seems to be a logical rats-nest. With the explainable-AI approach to this particular problem, the more intelligent the AI, the more this solution is like analyzing brain scans of your engineers. If your engineers could have produced "derived work" without literal copying, why can't the AI?

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#453
post #101

One interesting aspect, that I thing will make it difficult for GitHub to argue and justify its not a a license violation would be the answer to the following question: Was Copilot trained using Microsoft internal source code or will it be in the future ? As GitHub is a Microsoft company and OpenAI although a non-profit just got a massive one billion investment from Microsoft (presumably not for free), will it start…

Alternatively, wait for co-pilot to add support for C++, then start writing an operating system with Win32-compatible API using co-pilot. There is plenty of leaked Windows source code on Github, so chances are that co-pilot would give quite good suggestions for implementing a Win32-compatible kernel. Then watch and see if Microsoft will try to argue that you are violating their copyright using code generated by their…

oracle is probably already arming their lawyers. just setup a git, put a restrictive license, and scan any new github projects.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a difference in kind. Autocomplete, do you have anything to say to the commenter ? “This isn’t the best thing to say.”

How is designing a very large system even close to the same thing as writing a few small functions? That's like saying an architect designing a building is doing the same thing as a brick layer putting down cement.

“””Computers can already author documents at near human quality. Research is continuing to increase the accuracy and volume of these models.

Language processing research will not only help doctors, but will allow machine-based language translation, and eventually automated chat bots that can converse in our languages.

The next steps in human-machine collaboration are to allow people and machines to co-create. A recent Chinese report suggests that 50% of scientific papers in this field will be written without human intervention by 2033, compared with only 11% today.

One of the biggest challenges of machine learning is giving the machine what it lacks. This usually means gaining enough training data to teach the algorithm how to make inferences from data points it has never encountered before.

Many of the large organisations involved in advancing AI's ability to develop documents can improve how the algorithms learn by building on the knowledge and experience of human workers.”””

The above text was automatically written by https://app.inferkit.com/demo . It uses a language model to predict the next word in a sequence. In other words, to use your example, it not only architects, but builds, the entire building simply by predicting where to put the next brick.

So to answer your question: Yes. That’s exactly how it’s done.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a difference in kind. Autocomplete, do you have anything to say to the commenter ? “This isn’t the best thing to say.”

Coding a snippet is not different in kind from designing a Kernel? It's the difference between tactics and strategy.

I’ll direct you to my other comment in this thread. But give you the TL;DNR no it isn’t.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#456
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very concept of ownership is a social artifact, and as such, is not immutable. What does it mean for the 0.1% to own all the means of production? They can't physically possess them all. So what it means in practice is that our society recognizes the abstract notion of property ownership, distinct from physical possession or use - basically, the right to deny other people the use of that property, or allow it cond…

The problem I see is that once the pitchforks come out, society will lose decades of progress. If we're somewhat close to the techno-utopia at the start, we won't be at the end. Who's going to rebuild on the promise that the next generation won't need to work? Revolutions aren't great at building a sense of real community; there's a good reason that "successful" communist uprisings result in totalitarian monarchies.…

Revolutions aren't great, period. But they happen when the system can no longer function, unless somebody carefully guides a transition to another stable state.

That said, wrt "communist" revolutions specifically - they result in totalitarian dictatorships because the Bolshevik/Marxist-Leninist ideology underpinning them is highly conductive to that: concepts like dictatorship of the proletariat (esp. in Lenin's interpretation of it), vanguard party, and democratic centralism all combine to this inevitable end result.

But no other ideological strain of Marxism has ever carried out a successful revolution - perhaps because they simply weren't brutal enough. By means of example: Bolsheviks violently suppressed the Russian Constituent Assembly within one day of its opening, as soon as they realized that they don't have the majority there. In a similar way, despite all the talk of council democracy, they consistently suppressed councils controlled by their opposition (peasant ones were, typically).

Bolsheviks were the first ones who succeeded, and thereafter, their support was crucial to the success of other revolutions - but that support came with ideological strings attached. So China, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba etc all hail from the same authoritarian tradition. Furthermore, where opposition leftist factions vied for dominance against Soviet-backed ones, Soviets actively suppressed them - the campaign against "social fascism" in 1930s, for example, or persecution of anarchists in Republican Spain.

Anyway, we don't really know what a revolution that would stick to democratic governance would look like, long term. There were some figures and factions in the revolutionary Marxist communist movement that were much more serious about democracy than Bolsheviks - e.g. Rosa Luxemburg. They just didn't survive for long.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is designing a very large system even close to the same thing as writing a few small functions? That's like saying an architect designing a building is doing the same thing as a brick layer putting down cement.

“””Computers can already author documents at near human quality. Research is continuing to increase the accuracy and volume of these models. Language processing research will not only help doctors, but will allow machine-based language translation, and eventually automated chat bots that can converse in our languages. The next steps in human-machine collaboration are to allow people and machines to co-create. A recen…

And such a thing has never been achieved with code. Besides very often the texts such an ai creates are non-sensical. And they are very short. Writing a few pages of text would equivalent to small tool of a few hundred lines. Or about the same as building a wooden shed. You don't need much skill for that. Come back when an AI can write multiple internally consistent books such as LOTR and the Dilation or the Harry Potter series. That's the scale of architecting a system.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#459
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the GPL. Almost all open source software licenses require attribution; without that attribution, any copy is a license violation. Whether or not the result is a license violation is tricky legal question. As always, IANAL.

I did say "for example".

You certainly did! But there are a lot of people who think "OSS license means there are no requirements" and think it's okay to do things like copy without attribution when the license requires attributions. I know you didn't say anything like that either, but some others might think it.

It seems to me an important question is, "is this like a human who learns from examples, or is this really a derivative work in the copyright sense?".I'm not sure how to answer that. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know if many lawyers can answer that question either!

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“””Computers can already author documents at near human quality. Research is continuing to increase the accuracy and volume of these models. Language processing research will not only help doctors, but will allow machine-based language translation, and eventually automated chat bots that can converse in our languages. The next steps in human-machine collaboration are to allow people and machines to co-create. A recen…

And such a thing has never been achieved with code. Besides very often the texts such an ai creates are non-sensical. And they are very short. Writing a few pages of text would equivalent to small tool of a few hundred lines. Or about the same as building a wooden shed. You don't need much skill for that. Come back when an AI can write multiple internally consistent books such as LOTR and the Dilation or the Harry Po…

True, but I also think this is showing a lack of imagination about where things are going.

You're trying to say architecting is some big woo idea that's somehow different from writing code. Kind of, maybe. But I bet you could build a functional kernel with central design. Given that's how biological systems work, I'm sure it could be done. Then what say you?

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