What it's like to be cancelled • Hacker News Board

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#451

Post by megous » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #155

I appreciate where he goes into what people latched on to and recontextualized. We shouldn't have to pre-parse everything we say and do for any possibly uncharitable read, but it can feel like it's necessary sometimes, and maybe others can learn from stuff like this. I was on the receiving end of smaller versions of this back when Twitter rage mobs were new and no one knew what to make of them. It was impossible to s…

But he was communicating to a large public audience on Twitter.

It's ok to expect from a friend in 1-on-1 to ask you "what do you mean a "sexual predator"?" in a maybe surprised, but genuinely interested manner...

But expecting nuance and curiosity from random people on the internet after you label yourself "sexual predator" publicly without much context? That's quite a lapse in judgement, imo.

I remember a public radio personality who publicly revealed that he served a sentence for murder when he was younger, and it was handled much better, with much better result. It was all arranged with the other people in the radio show, it was introduced in detail and context, etc. He didn't just one day wake up and decide to surprise everyone with a big reveal and apologize to society. I guess not a great comparison, but "sexual predator" has some legal/criminal connotations, too.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#452

Post by defaultname » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #443

defaultname wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is either a weird rhetorical device you're using to discount opposing viewpoints (they're all just trying to "escape the reality of their own failed lives"..."they are worthless"), or some sort of Jungian projection. Sexual harassment is an enormous problem in every industry. People who just want to do good work and be a part and contribute become targets for predators who objectify, diminish and harass. Cultura…

> This is either a weird rhetorical device you're using to discount opposing viewpoints (they're all just trying to "escape the reality of their own failed lives"..."they are worthless"), or some sort of Jungian projection. This is the long winded version of "no you". > Sexual harassment is an enormous problem in every industry. People who just want to do good work and be a part and contribute become targets for pred…

> This is the long winded version of "no you".

I'd say it's much more accurate than the weird caricature you propped up.

> You think OP is guilty here, with no basis.

A bunch of people cited problem. Employer fired him. I don't assume he's guilty, but I have absolutely no reason to think him innocent, or somehow the victim in all of this.

Being a creep has consequences. His own confession admitted to being a creep (the largest red flag being the claim of doing "dumb things while drunk", which is a go to in every obnoxious behavior). Eh.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#453

Post by robocat » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

threeboy wrote: post #17

prepend wrote: post #11

I think the biggest problem with Twitter is that we can’t determine a denominator. Twitter knows, but we don’t know. 100 people tweeting about how this guy is bad might be indicative of a general consensus or might just be 100 people out of a billion Twitter users. People then interpret it as general consensus and pile on. We know the numerator but since we don’t know the denominator of people who didn’t comment, or…

"Three men make a tiger"

“””Another great Chinese expression is "calling a deer a horse" (指鹿為馬; zhǐlù-wéimǎ) which is based on the story of Zhao Gao which goes as follows:

Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly.”””

Seems even more appropriate - quoted from https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/e1diq2/three_men...

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#454

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #360

mcosta wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journos are the new clerics. The western moral compass

There's probably a better way to frame this in a context where journalists are increasingly under attack just for doing their jobs. https://cpj.org/2020/12/in-2020-u-s-journalists-faced-unprec...

I'm not sure if it's correlated - but journalists have also been doing a far worse job than I've experienced previously.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#455

Post by filoeleven » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #368

73gfg wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is their intention. To shutdown discourse and shift the Overton window. This flows onto preference falsification.

I agree with you on the overton window part, and that's why i'm not against "cancel culture" even though i won't participate in an obvious bourgeois plot (/s). The social liberals are the 3rd political group who used it, i'd say at least as efficiently as the far right (first group that used internet to shift the Overton window) and more efficiently than the libertarian/fiscal liberals (second group). But as social l…

Not sure why you’re being downvoted, but part of “the right,” American Christian evangelicals, did indeed create the format of cancel culture that we see today. The linked article has a decent overview.

It’s not totally accurate: boycotts have been around much longer, and can serve broader purposes. I think it’s fair to say that evangelicals were the first to boycott companies based not on their systemic practices but on individual people’s lifestyles.

I remember in the 90s when Amy Grant, a contemporary Christian music icon, was shunned because she got a divorce. Fast forward to 200X when the Dixie Chicks were then canceled for criticizing GWB. We could also jump back to Bill Clinton’s impeachment…

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/17/evangelicals-perfected-c...

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#456

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #453

threeboy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Three men make a tiger"

“””Another great Chinese expression is "calling a deer a horse" (指鹿為馬; zhǐlù-wéimǎ) which is based on the story of Zhao Gao which goes as follows: Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perh…

[deleted]

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#457

Post by jacobr1 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

surround wrote: post #217

overgard wrote: post #99

I've fortunately never been cancelled (I don't think I even have enough of a footprint or visibility for that to happen). From everything I've observed, the absolute worst thing you can do is apologize to the people attempting to cancel you. It's just pouring gasoline on the fire. These people will never say "oh, you learned from your mistakes, I guess I'll back off" . Most of them don't really care about the truth,…

Every single internet apology I've seen has been met with "this is such a bad apology / isn't a real apology." I'd love to see an example of an internet apology where people don't criticize the apology itself (if one exists).

Even presuming that the act was worthy of censure, and an apology sincere, forgiveness can't really be given until some sort of restorative action is taken. Words, even sincere words, can't provide recompense.

Of course, most these internet based outrages and boilerplate apologies are ridiculous anyway. Sincerity is nowhere to be found.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#458

Post by username90 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

hindsightbias wrote: post #163

PaulKeeble wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that happens if you voice your opinion in the opposite direction of an internet mob is you get piled on too. Anyone who has been on the internet must have experienced this more than once. Introducing some facts or measure (which is hard with twitters very tiny character limit that squashes nuance and debate) in a response is just the same thing. The internet mob is a mob and acts like a mob and its best to get ou…

An internet mob is the perfect model for what a Direct Democracy would look like.

Switzerland is the perfect model for what a direct democracy actually looks like and it is nothing like a twitter mob.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#459

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #454

mkr-hn wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's probably a better way to frame this in a context where journalists are increasingly under attack just for doing their jobs. https://cpj.org/2020/12/in-2020-u-s-journalists-faced-unprec...

I'm not sure if it's correlated - but journalists have also been doing a far worse job than I've experienced previously.

[deleted]

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#460

Post by mandmandam » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

DevKoala wrote: post #184

mandmandam wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you for doing the right thing. Let me ask you - did you feel like the hate thrown at you on Twitter was completely organic? Was there anything that made you question the motives of the involved Twits? I ask because the whole smear job vs Stallman felt quite manufactured to me; from the initial Vice article horrifically misquoting him, to the weirdly rabid hate towards anyone defending him on forums like this…

Doesn’t it always feel manufactured? What you are mentioning regarding the case of Stallman’s cancelling is the same pattern I have seen applied against every other voice that has a dissenting opinion of the current culture that dominates social media.

> Doesn’t it always feel manufactured?

No. Spacey, Weinstein, and Epstein, to name a few, felt the opposite of manufactured. Repressed? Those stories took years, or decades to break, even with high profile advocates.

Now, you might say that they didn't have a "dissenting opinion of the social media culture" - but their actions would show otherwise.