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Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

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Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current AWS engineer here, can confirm. I'm absolutely broken. I'd second the point about the manager and pre-existing conditions making up the job. It's not clear to me if it's endemic, these are big orgs with teams run very differently. That being said, the on-call sucks. It's really awful, and something I've never seen before. It's also typically the primary cause of team churn for people in my org. This varies, a…

I’m sorry you’re having a rough time. Hang in there, and if you move on, good luck!

Thank you, I appreciate you saying this. I don't want to give the impression it's all awful though. We are reasonably well compensated (you do a lot better if you're based in certain countries than others).

There are part of this job that were a lot harder than I could have imagined. The aim of my earlier comment was to make this clear to people considering AWS. When the hiring manager interviews you and mentions there's "an on-call component to this job", realise that it _can_ be severe. The on-call time is also unpaid; it's also very difficult to spend significant time on improving this situation, if that's possible at all. Other comments have done a better job of describing this.

There are parts of the job that are fantastic. You have access to some outstanding engineers (this is also the case at many other companies though). Almost all of the principal engineers I've interacted with have been very generous with their time and knowledge. I thoroughly enjoy the Principals of Amazons talks, and subsequent discussions. I've also had the opportunity to be able to look very deeply at technical problems (this is a direct result of my manager). Having worked at a number of SMEs before, this wouldn't have been the case. You also work on systems being used by so many people (this is mostly wonderful in hindsight), which having worked on products that have evaporated into the ether in the past, is rewarding.

It's not for everyone, and it's certainly not forever at AWS. My guess is I'll walk away with some scars and a much better idea of what I want I don't want to spend my time doing.

You'll learn a lot and cry a lot.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that’s because the AWS teams are presumably shouldering the burden, then.

I’m sure you’re right for some services, especially infra ones, such as EC2. Some other services, though, should be built on top of EC2, EBS, Lambda, S3, and etc, in which case Netflix and AWS teams use the same infra, yet Netflix internal services require much less oncall

No doubt Netflix is a much better run engineering org.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Management has zero incentive to change any of problems you signal, and probably don't see them as an issue. It sounds like management intentionally created these practices. This is from a recent NY Times article about Amazon warehouse workers, but it wouldn't surprise me if this attitude was applied to all workers in the company to some degree: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/us/politics/amazon-wareho... : > 5.…

When did humane treatment, job security, and the worker's collective voice leave the picture? Are we to simply praise everything laid out here?

Some time in the 1980s, when people were convinced that if they stabbed themselves in the back, they had a shot at being millionaires.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#454
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there's no way I'd put up with this. Trillion dollar company and still operating like it's amateur hour on many teams it seems.

The org is getting what it wants out of the team; why would they fix it? As long as you've got meat for the grinder, you can keep making sausage.

Also: the cruelty is the point.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#455
I’m going to offer a different perspective here as someone who was lucky enough to get placed on a pretty good team within Prime Video. I just hit the 1 yr mark, fwiw. The engineering bar is top notch, lots of attention to code quality, and management seems to care and listen to us engineers, though we occasionally clash of course. With Amazon, YMMV, so try your best to choose a good team though it’s a bit of a lottery ultimately.

I’ve heard AWS can be super brutal, the consensus seems to avoid it.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our on-call was pretty bad (40-60 tickets a week) and there was very little investment being put in to improve it. We had a lot of little scripts here and there which would solve extremely specific situations but no focus was ever put on in building a general framework or trying to reduce the ticket count. AWS engineer here and I confirm everything you say, but this quote really struck home with me. The thing I've n…

Can you share your knowledge or reading materials for how to reduce on-call load? I’ve worked at a number of big companies but all the problems driving the oncall load seemed, at best, domain specific if not application specific with highly variable fix times and unpredictable occurrence (eg started becoming more of a problem due to unrelated change X). As a result each team has to decide the cost of fixing the pain…

There is a lot of SRE content about fixing on-call.

My short summary is, fixing on-call is a HUMAN problem, not a technical engineering problem.

Here’s an excellent place to start:

https://monitoring.love/articles/how-to-improve-on-call/

There is a wonderful list of talks and resources there, and those will lead you to yet more concepts and ideas to research.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share your knowledge or reading materials for how to reduce on-call load? I’ve worked at a number of big companies but all the problems driving the oncall load seemed, at best, domain specific if not application specific with highly variable fix times and unpredictable occurrence (eg started becoming more of a problem due to unrelated change X). As a result each team has to decide the cost of fixing the pain…

I don't have any particular reading material, and my example of the on-call load at AWS that I'm referring to is probably very basic to most people. On my team at AWS, leadership has given specific instruction that we do not believe in on-call runbooks or automation to triage issues, for example. Leadership's reasoning for this is that they think runbooks prevent engineers from applying personal judgement, and every…

It is absolutely fascinating how wrong this approach is.

Every single issue that comes up in on-call should be evaluated under the lens of “does fixing this absolutely require human judgement, or can it be automated, ideally by fixing the code in the main system. If it does require human judgement, are there ways to redesign so that is no longer true?”

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#458

I interviewed with Amazon and Facebook in the Spring/Summer of 2020. The difference was night and day. Amazon felt like I was part of a huge cattle herd. The recruiter contacted me and told me they needed to hire a bunch of people in my area. I was immediately given a course of study, link to common LeetCode questions and told I had a couple of weeks. That fine. I enjoy solving puzzles. Facebook felt VERY different.…

I had a similar experience at Amazon. About midway through the onsite at Amazon I kind of decided "I don't think I'd like working here and I already have other offers, so my brain will be going into neutral now." and kind of checked out. Felt very much like the interviewers didn't want to be in the room with me and just wanted me to fuck up so they could click "No hire" in the HR app and get out. Walked out figuring…

HR and anyone in engineering have no idea who each other are, and never talk. It's not some top to bottom well oiled machine. It's all random and hit or miss.

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary source is the NYT, not Business Insider. They clearly name their source too, "David Niekerk, a former Amazon vice president who built the warehouse human resources operations" 1: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/15/us/amazon-wor...

NY times I can get behind. Business insider is like citing the national enquirer.

I said that there were a number of recent articles. When you decided you didn't like the one I gave you, did you look for any of the rest?

Re: Hire-to-fire at Amazon India?

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth of the matter is that I've never seen anywhere where this isn't the case to some degree. Long term thinking is rare. I think it's very safe to assume the level of technical rigor in a given undertaking just falls to the minimum required unless there's a very strong force keeping it in a higher state. Maybe places like NASA JPL or Apple manage to float above the minimum because of a really unified and powerf…

> I think it's very safe to assume the level of technical rigor in a given undertaking just falls to the minimum required unless there's a very strong force keeping it in a higher state. It really depends on who's setting the tone. If it's an owner or manager taking an active interest, I think your observation is true. > Maybe places like NASA JPL or Apple manage to float above the minimum because of a really unified…

Bloomberg Quicktake (which is one of the few news outlet Youtube channels I recommend) did a good 20 minutes piece on Boeing's internal cultural demise [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EESYomdoeCs

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