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Why Russians do not smile (2002)

chicagomaroon.com

451–460 of 502 posts

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#451

Estonian here. At Skype (10+ years ago) I observed, that members of large cultures (American, British, Hindu etc.) had real trouble adjusting to the predominantly Estonian-based engineering culture. Probably because they had never had to adjust, commonly people adjust to _their_ culture as it tends to dominate large organizations. But once they did make an honest attempt, that was always most welcomed and gained them…

Do you mean Indian instead of Hindu? In context of your post, it would seem Indian is what you meant, given you refer to everyone else by nationality.

I see it as a common conflation where people substitute Hindu (religion) with Hindi (language) with Indian (nationality/heritage).

But yes, as an Indian myself, we often have a different understanding of personal space and contact versus European/American cultures. It's not usually meant to be anything malicious, but it is very jarring in comparison.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#452

Another thing I've noticed uniquely with some Russian colleagues, and I've never quite known the meaning of, but I assume is Russian cultural attribute, is silence. A few times I've e.g. been explaining something to a Russian colleague, I'll go on and on, and when I'm done ... nothing. This always gets me anxious. What does it mean? Does the person think it's the dumbest thing he's ever heard? Did the person not unde…

Silence is neutral complicity in russian, like “copy”. No answer means we either do not care too much or it’s all clear. Sometimes things need time to sink in, but you will not receive any signal about it, unless they have an immediate objection. When explaining something to russian, you don’t ask them if they agree, cause our language culture is mostly statement-y rather than negotiating. If you explained good enough, there is nothing to say. If you expect an answer, make it a question.

Does the person think it's the dumbest thing he's ever heard? Did the person not understand what I said? Does the person need more time to think about it? Does the person not realize I'm finished? What is expected of the speaker in this scenario? Do I just wait? Do I prod? Do I explain it again? Do I leave?

You are expected to either not care more than you did already, or ask any questions you have explicitly. If you feel anxious or confused, tell it. Nobody’s going to comfort you, unless you’re showing clear signs of breakdown, especially if you’re a guy.

All of this is true in negotiation, official situations, talking to strangers, etc. When you talk to a friend, they’ll be more chatty and supporting/feedbacky, but not as much as you probably expect.

That said, we have types whose nature is “silent partisan”, that will be hard for you to detect.

Edit: reading this thread, I really wonder why binutils do not reply kindly to your actions:

  $ ls -1
  Oh here’s your one column list please:

  $ mv foo bar
  Glad you asked, consider it done!

  $ rm -rf /root
  You know I see your point, but Permission denied.

  $ vi
  Hope you’ll enjoy exiting that!

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same reaction as jwilber. If I think you are in a healthy state of mind, then “let me know if you need (or want) anything” is sufficient initiative. Even if you are my kid/SO/parents/siblings.

I would put it this way - in my way of thinking and cultural assumptions, any given relationship, close or not, one has a sense of whether asking favors is possible, and what sort are reasonable. Or else a sense of uncertainty about it. The statement "let me know if you need anything" has a different meaning depending on what it was reasonable to ask already. It adds no information, due to the meaning of "anything" b…

> The statement "let me know if you need anything" has a different meaning depending on what it was reasonable to ask already.

That’s the purpose of the statement. The person you’re saying it to should have a vague idea of what is a reasonable ask depending on relationship, and if not, they will just get denied. But it is genuine.

If I’m at a store, and my coworker asks me to grab a pack of gum, I’ll do it. If they ask me to go to a store 15 min away for something, I’m going to say no, but they probably would not ask me that anyway. But if a close family member asks, I would go to the different store.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#454
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also a big annoyance for me. I regularly interact with people of different cultures, and find that interpreting feedback is something I have to context switch for often, always needing to remember whom I am speaking with. My native culture is quite straightforward in how things are phrased. As such, I find it easy to work with e.g. Germans, who routinely use phrases such as "this is unacceptable" in feedback.…

Just to add another perspective, as an American living in Germany, I often find that the German criticism of American optimism/interpersonal warmth is extremely paranoid. I have heard so many Germans describe American "niceness" as "fake", but I don't think the American approach is rooted in dishonesty as it's sometimes assumed by outsiders. For instance, Germans will be shocked if they go to the US, and a stranger s…

As a German who's spent a total of about half a year (maybe too little!) in the US, I think you've kind of nailed it with this explanation, but there's a part that's missing to me.

On the one hand, focusing on potential rather than flaws is exactly what feels like one of the things that could be better here. Also, as you say, there's nothing necessarily mendacious about a little bit of friendliness.

On the other hand, the thing that somewhat rubbed me the wrong way in the states wasn't ever the extraversion or friendliness / politeness in itself, but rather those situations where I felt like a particular positive (sometimes highly) emotional reaction was somehow socially expected in a professional context, and then watching people turn into actors to fill the role.

One example of this that I remember vividly was a session at a scientific conference, where a series of larger and smaller prizes were awarded. Some to just grad students, some to senior professors.

The laureates typically had to give a small speech. Everybody tried super hard to act and talk "honored", "humbled", "grateful". Most of them weren't great actors, and looked rather uncomfortable in the process. It was somewhat creepy to watch for me.

The part that was strange to me wasn't the fact that they were saying thanks (obviously), I guess that would be the same anywhere in the world, but rather how they all seemed to think it was necessary to play-act strong displays of emotions.

To me, that was the clearest example of this that I've seen so far, but in general it just seems like Americans have much less of a problem with professional social expectations creeping into the most private realm of your personality.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Hindu pm had the habit of sitting next to developers while they worked, sometimes putting a hand on their knee Eh... That doesn't sound like just an Indian being Indian. a Japanese guy came to the hr person complaining the original lady from us had hugged them. Again, it was explained that this is just what Americans do Nope... We don't hug people who don't want to be hugged. The Japanese guy was right to complain,…

Never seen such a lack of self-awareness in a comment. And I've been here quite a while! Americans having to adjust to other people's cultures. Imagine that.

Some of us Americans can't even adjust to the culture of other ever-so-slightly different Americans.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#456
I'm really late to the party, but here goes anyway.

Some context is due. The article is almost twenty years old. The experiences described there are from a time period when Latvia had gained independence from the Soviet Union only some ten years prior. So, pretty much all the people working in the hospitality industry would be someone whose formative years and/or young adulthood was spent during the nineties.

That was a pretty brutal decade. Rearranging from planned to market economy is hard. Economic crises abound, rampant organized crime, generally high levels of aggression. I come from a small town and I was a kid then, but even then I know of four murders that happened then in my home town. A guy was beaten to death in a nightclub, another guy was thrown from a bridge, my favorite sales clerk at a local store got incarcerated for axe-murdering his wife and her lover, and a body was found in the bushes behind my music school. Ah right, there was also the case of a neighbor massacring a family on a potato field. A friend who lived in Riga during that time told me how his dad always had a peace of metal pipe behind the door. Just in case. In a later interview the guy who was chief of police then revealed how he slept with body armor on at all times.

So, people who were teenagers or young adults then learned to not smile for the same reasons the prison population is not really a cheerful bunch. It's outright dangerous. There's a book and a recently made movie about coming of age as a metalhead in a mid-sized Latvian town during the nineties called Jelgava 94 (Doom 94). It really conveys the look and feel of those times quite well.

It's very different now. Sure, people don't smile as much as Americans (no one except Thais does), and are not as chatty as the Brits. But a lot of people have worked or traveled abroad, have seen and gotten accustomed to different cultures. According to my experience pretty much everyone below the age of 25 speak fluent English. And hug. They hug a lot. And yeah, the crime levels are nowhere near to how it was in the nineties.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#457
What we call "culture" is often collective trauma, it is history. To be left behind. We are all humans, dysfunctional in different ways we call "culture".... until one can hope, someday the fish sees the water.

There is strictly no sane reason why a human being should withdraw a smile or any kind of positive emotion or spontaneous expression so long as they are emotionally healthy.

At same time the need for boundaries in our relationships (professional , intimate etc.) is universal, not cultural.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#458
post #16

I wonder if any Russians can weigh in if this still feels accurate. I'm familiar with Polish Culture, which is less fun, frivolous, and happy than American culture, but a smile is certainly not an attack, just reserved for genuine occasions. Service people are in no way expected to smile unless there is some honest reason to.

I can imagine a drunk person reacting as described, but mainly because drunk people are unpredictable. I think otherwise though it you smile a lot for no reason people will think you are a little foolish or loony, but it isn’t dangerous. I agree with the author that Americans and Russians have a surprising amount of similarities when you get past some surface level differences.

Anecdotally, the only unprovoked bad interaction I've had with a drunk guy was also in Riga. He'd come and take my beer out of my hand, and taunt me with it, refusing to give it back.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#459
post #437
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway the office is desolate after 13:00 on a Friday. Only the youngest and the ones without children stick around till 16:00, and not many of them either.

Interesting. Is this because of officially shorter working hours per week, because of longer hours on the other weekdays, or just some kind of an unofficial practice? How common is this? As another Nordic, I've seen people gladly leave the office around 15:00 or 16:00 (or earlier for some people if they like to start early) on a Friday, but it's hard to imagine people who are on the clock regularly leaving at 13:00 u…

I can't speak for the parent poster, but I've never worked anywhere in Norway where there are that short Fridays. Sure, you could leave at 15, but then you'd have started at 7.

Re: Why Russians do not smile (2002)

#460
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also a big annoyance for me. I regularly interact with people of different cultures, and find that interpreting feedback is something I have to context switch for often, always needing to remember whom I am speaking with. My native culture is quite straightforward in how things are phrased. As such, I find it easy to work with e.g. Germans, who routinely use phrases such as "this is unacceptable" in feedback.…

Just to add another perspective, as an American living in Germany, I often find that the German criticism of American optimism/interpersonal warmth is extremely paranoid. I have heard so many Germans describe American "niceness" as "fake", but I don't think the American approach is rooted in dishonesty as it's sometimes assumed by outsiders. For instance, Germans will be shocked if they go to the US, and a stranger s…

First of all, thank you for this response. Thought about it a bit. In the end it's a thin line. "Empowering", and "walking around their possible sensibilities". In the end no one way can be said to be completely right. The connection can reasonably be made between optimism, friendliness, positivity (even if questionable), and entrepreneurship, and maybe no wonder the Americans are dominating the Tech industry, while the Germans are stuck building cars (of course grossly simplifying both economies here).

> deeply rooted ideals for independence and self determination, and a general sense of optimism.

But for every entrepreneur that makes it, I feel that hundreds walk around with false sense of optimism, pride in their mediocre work, dream naively outside their intellectual means, while it might be more advisable to be clipped of their wings, and to be grounded more in reality? Sorry I'm taking this discussion one level upwards to a more meta level, it's a tendency of mine.

In the end, who knows. I'm quite harsh dishing out criticism, and being able to take it I consider a virtue. I'd rather tell someone they're overweight than talk about positive body image. Or tell someone they should work on their presentation and speaking skills, rather than encourage them to give a speech they will fail at.

Probably best to take the best of both worlds and try to create something out of that.

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