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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#451
post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

> A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves.

By far the most heavily subsidized, most expensive, poorest and least educated people in the United States are the poor living in urban zones. It's not even remotely a close comparison in terms of numbers.

You can see it in the crime statistics, you can see it in the drop-out rates, you can see it in the homelessness rates. And so on.

You can also see it in the cost of incarcerating violent criminals (not drug offenders, which are a shrinking, smaller share of the incarcerated population), which urban zones produce radically more of to go with the extreme poverty found in US cities. The urban zones - which are hyper dangerous in the US - produce the overwhelming share of all murder in the country. Who pays for the very expensive policing necessary to keep terrorist groups from burning Portland to the ground? That isn't going on in rural Oregon. Who pays for the very expensive policing to try to control the extreme murder rates in Baltimore or Chicago? That isn't going on in rural Maryland or Illinois; the per capita murder rates in Baltimore are 50x to 100x higher than in rural Maryland. These things are all subsidized by the urban high income brackets, and it's a huge cost.

And it's also true that the urban zones have far higher incomes, so they pay higher taxes and push more money into the welfare system accordingly. They subsidize both their local urban poor and the rural poor outside the cities.

The bottom 10% in Los Angeles represent a de facto third world standard of living and it's a very large population. Those shocking, unbelievable homeless camps in Los Angeles look like something out of a sci-fi dystopian movie. And that's just a very small fraction, a small visual representation, of the extreme poverty in cities like Los Angeles or Chicago.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

> 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. I just spent a month in central Oregon and there were proscribed burns going on all over the place. It was the most forest management I've seen in any state.

This is coded language to mean "we can pull resources from federal/state lands but not pay for them".

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#453
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that basically says that essentially no one in the state of MA is rural and that almost no one in the state of CA is rural. Which probably doesn't correspond to how average people think about rural vs. urban. So the fact that I can look off my back deck and see nothing but trees is a reasonable urban environment.

> and that almost no one in the state of CA is rural Kinda crazy to see the entire I-5 length between San Francisco and Los Angeles classified as "metro". Perhaps the metric they're using doesn't work so well when counties (which is what they classify) are so large, and they primarily care that some city of over 50k people exists in it "somewhere". Some of those counties appear to be as large as or larger than some o…

I'm sure there are reasons for the current classification. But there are certainly differences between I live on a hundred acres but I have decent shopping and culture relatively accessible and the nearest Walmart is 100 miles away.

As you suggest, a lot of what is classified as urban is not urban especially by the standards of someone who barely considers the South Bay as urban.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#454
post #28

One of the things I periodically mentally noodle with is, what would the world look like if it was a lot easier for units to choose what larger units they would aggregate into? Like, cities choosing a county, counties choosing a state, states choosing their country, etc. I originally was noodling with this in the context of a space civilization, where there is no equivalent of "solid ground", everything's always movi…

There is currently a process of devolution in the world, including Scotland, Catalonia, basically the entire former British empire, former Soviet states, and other places in the world. As areas become more peaceful, quite a few places start the see opportunities for governing themselves, and the benefits of creating the laws which directly impact their lives. Some countries technically have the right of secession cod…

I feel there is a "seesaw" effect here though - relatively speaking - where when the conditions are right (peace/stability), the needle tends to head towards one direction (decentralization), but when the conditions are different (conflict/instability), the needle often heads the other way (centralization).

There's also the thought that decentralization is seen as a threat by centralized players, therefore, even if it could be more effective, it may be prevented or delayed from taking hold.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#455
post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

This particular movement, to its credit, seems to acknowledge this flow of money. It's about morality and control for them.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#456

How is the 6-Californians proposal going, I wonder? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Californias

I love how gerrymandered these proposals are. Make sure that the Bay Area is split across two states, so that both stay blue.

The person who sponsored the 6 californias proposal was fairly conservative / capitalistic. I doubt he was attempting to create more states that leaned toward Democrats.

Also have you ever been to Marin? A lot of people there are fairly "conservative".

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

> A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has nothing to do with work ethic, it's just a hard fact that a lot of costs scale with square miles instead of with people…

hard to have compassion for your countrymen when they think you don’t belong in the country…

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One guy had to dismantle a building he erected (he's a builder) because he maxed out on "how much roof" he can have. Please tell me what part of the country this is so I can avoid it.

Floor Area Ratio regulations are pretty standard rules. However, rules like these are "zoning/planning" and are usually set by the city or county, not the state. The county shifting to Idaho is likely to have no effect on that regulation. FAR's are why Palo Alto had to bring in regulations on basement sizes (the majority of the house was underground!), and why Zuckerberg is having problems with his renovation plans.…

It's meant to affect light so should not apply to basements. Finished basement area is still taxed in most counties.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The even more crazy part is the proposed Jefferson has less than 1/10 the population of West or South California but still has a higher population than both Dakotas, Washington DC, Alaska, Vermont, or Wyoming. West California would still be one of the most populous states in the union, coming in just behind Ohio in 7th place and South California would be nipping on its heels. Silicon Valley would be ranked near Tenne…

> it's probably less crazy than having almost 40 million people be represented by just 2 senators when Wyoming has the same number of senators for barely half a million people. This was purposely the design of the Senate. This complaint should be more applied to the House, where we stopped increasing the number of reps as population grew

The Senate was designed by crazy people.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#460
post #306
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your definitions. A lot of people would object to defining urban as encompassing having to drive anywhere except to connect to immediate neighbors. I can basically go to my two immediate neighbors. Otherwise I have to get in a car. Is that urban?

Rural is defined in USA here: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/rur...

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