Live data from Hacker News

Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

npr.org

451–460 of 576 posts

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah but which "mother version"? American English is closer to the original spelling than British English, but getting the actual English to change their use of their own language because the Americans use it differently seems... odd. Plus there's no intrinsic reason to prefer the original spelling over later versions. So maybe we should all use English as it is used by the actual English? But that would see a small mi…

>So maybe we should all use English as it is used by the actual English? I'm in. Just imagine stuck up californians suddenly speaking Geordie. Howay man.

I'm not sure that Geordie counts as actual English, given that 80% of England (never mind the rest of the Anglosphere) can't understand it ;)

I once worked as a KP in the Isle of Man alongside cooks from Belfast, Glasgow and Sunderland. My Wurzel upbringing did not prepare me for this. Took me 3 weeks of repeated "what?" to begin to understand them. But I find that 30 years later, I can still understand them. Weird how that works.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#452

> But this scenario doesn't fit with Serrano's experiences of English, where nonnative English speakers who learned the language in a classroom are often more educated on grammar rules and complex technical terms than American native speakers. In my experience as an EFL teacher living abroad in multiple countries... this is not even remotely accurate. English students across the world are often "taught" a ton of nons…

I have noticed Indians using that phrase quite a lot: "I have a doubt." I think it may just be a quirk of Indian English and should probably not be considered incorrect, the same way British English quirks are not incorrect.

Not incorrect when the speaker or millieu is Indian, but it would grate a little to claim it is more correct than "I have a question." Saying "I have a doubt" is almost le Carré, a spymaster weighing fragments of deception.

Regional dialects and quaint idioms are absolutely English though. How else to add tone and shading to our communication? It's the sand the forces the oyster to make pearls.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#453
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you are curious what the exact reason might be: "It seems to me" is most likely coming from the much less fancy sounding, and more casual "мне кажется" (mnye kazhetsya). "Mnye" would be "to me", and "kazhetsya" could be represented as "it seems". I say "could be" because there is no direct translation for "kazhetsya" as far as I'm aware. The closest (and most direct) translation of "kazhetsya" that I can thin…

Coming from English, I struggle with when to use я vs Мне.

Not sure if you'd like an advice or merely sharing your experience, but after reading your comment I spent an hour or so trying to provide a simple rule of thumb. To my surprise, I failed miserably. But I scraped some info together in the process, so I'll post it in a hope that it might give you a better perspective. Mind you, I'm not a linguist or a teacher.

First of all, I made a list of Russian я/мне lines with English translations next to them just to see if there is consistent presence of a hint in English lines that can point to the right Russian translation. There is none. So if you are trying to figure out the proper pronoun this way, you are doing it wrong.

To make an educated choice between я/мне you'll have to familiarise yourself with nominative and dative cases.

Here is some basic info on the cases in "question" and even more basic examples:

Nominative case of "I" is "я". Nominative case answers questions such as "who?" or "what?".

Кто пришёл? (Who came?) Я пришёл. (I came.)

Dative case of "I" is "мне". Dative case answers questions such as "to whom?" or "to what?".

Дать кому? (Give to whom?) Мне. (To me.)

As you might've noticed, native English speakers won't normally construct questions in a way they are constructed in most Russian cases, so I'd suggest to get familiar with cases and their respective questions first, and try to construct sentences later.

Or, depending on your goal, you can simply memorize common sentences/lines altogether and figure out why they work later.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah but which "mother version"? American English is closer to the original spelling than British English, but getting the actual English to change their use of their own language because the Americans use it differently seems... odd. Plus there's no intrinsic reason to prefer the original spelling over later versions. So maybe we should all use English as it is used by the actual English? But that would see a small mi…

> So maybe we should all use English as it is used by the actual English? Which ones? It's not like English, as actually spoken in England, is particularly uniform. It has uniform _spelling_, but that's about all; a lot of vocabulary and even grammar is quite regional.

If we get a choice, then Irish English.

There are a few things that got pulled from Gaelic to English in Ireland that I love.

Like "him/herself" to mean the object of the sentence without naming them "ah would you look at himself, all dressed up like that", "I'll have to check with herself if I'm allowed out on a school night", etc

And no (or dimished) use of yes or no. Monosyllabic answers verboten.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#455
Funny story while waiting in the Observation Area after getting the COVID vaccination:

In the first registration part, I discovered I didn't have an NHI number because I haven't been to a doctor. Therefore I was given a Post-It note on my consent form saying "Manual Entry".

After the jab, the observation nurses would call out names every few minutes: David, Priscilla, Marion, Yi Xin, Manuel, Daniel, Kyungbook, Richard... no surnames.

I didn't really think much of it. Besides, it was raining outside, I had my laptop, and I wasn't in a hurry to leave. When it was almost closing, there were only two of us left.

"Are you Manuel?" they asked. I said my name is Peter, not Manuel! But apparently they were calling "Manual". The Kiwi accent is hard to understand, even for a native speaker!

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#457

> But this scenario doesn't fit with Serrano's experiences of English, where nonnative English speakers who learned the language in a classroom are often more educated on grammar rules and complex technical terms than American native speakers. In my experience as an EFL teacher living abroad in multiple countries... this is not even remotely accurate. English students across the world are often "taught" a ton of nons…

Serrano also seems completely off-kilter with his analysis of mixed competency group communication:

  "On the contrary, communication ends because [the foreign researchers] cannot explain to the American, in simple language, the advanced topics they were discussing. Yet, the American *takes over the conversation*."
Having been in engineering discussions where the language was not English, it is very noticeable to me that it takes longer for me to formulate a comment or reply. Native speakers are simply far faster to express themselves. When there are multiple native speakers the pace quickens.

Speaking simply, to the point and without jargon, is actually an advanced skill. When you don't know the word circle you say square and then hack at the corners with other words until the other person nods. Part of the reason why Zoom classes suck.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#459
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Written communication is getting weirder (in a good way) by the day thanks to translation software. With Deepl (and even Google Translate) I can communicate very well with anyone in German, Polish or any of the supported languages, while in person it would be impossible, as I don't know the language at all. Google Assistant works, but it gets annoying real fast as it's slow and pretty cumbersome to use.

We are all Chinese rooms now.

For the uninitiated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't "I have a doubt" a way to say that you are not sure? Not that you do not understand it know, but that, well, you doubt. Like in "homeopathy is backed by science" to what someone would understandably say "I have a doubt" (in a mocking way in that case)

American English: "I doubt that" or "I have doubts" is much more natural. "Doubt" is almost never singular.

Singular "doubt" is pretty common, but almost exclusively used when indicating a lack of doubt.
Post reply on HN