Why People Feel Like Victims • Hacker News Board

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#451

Post by rayiner » Sat, May 08, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #419

rayiner wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not dumping on Ilhan Omar. I’m dumping on the mostly white people in the media who have made her, in my dad’s words, “the face of American Muslims.” She has views that are far outside the mainstream for American Muslims, particularly with respect to social issues and activism. She’s welcome to have whatever politics she wants—it’s America! But it’s wrong for the media to amplify her as if she is representative of…

White “progressives” have not made Omar (or Tlaib) the face of anything, nor does Omar pretend to speak for all Muslims (or all Somali refugees for that matter). Omar also does not have “extreme” views; she is a mainstream Democrat with mainstream center-left policy positions. Omar gets “amplified” predominantly because Fox News inter al. keep dumping on her all the time, and shrieking about what an “extremist” she i…

> White “progressives” have not made Omar (or Tlaib) the face of anything, nor does Omar pretend to speak for all Muslims (or all Somali refugees for that matter). Omar also does not have “extreme” views; she is a mainstream Democrat with mainstream center-left policy positions.

Not even Democrats think she’s a “mainstream Democrat.” Political she’s squarely in the progressive wing. But my point was theological. She has extreme views on social issues recognized by virtually no American Muslim scholars.

I didn’t form any opinions of Omar from watching “Fox News.” I’m a longtime Democrat, from a Muslim country, who started watching Fox News during the Trump era because I was sick of progressives trading on the moral authority of purporting to represent Muslims while amplifying people like Omar whose views are highly unrepresentative of Muslims.

Progressives shouldn’t amplify the voices of moderate and conservative Muslims. They should stop acting like they represent “people of color” when the progressive wing of the Democratic Party is as white as the Republican Party.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#452

Post by rayiner » Sat, May 08, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

esyir wrote: post #242

rayiner wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That treatment by the way, is extremely problematic. White people are empowered to amplify people like Ilhan Omar, who are extremely unrepresentative of their group, but are discouraged from amplifying people like my dad, a Biden voting Bangladeshi immigrant who hates being called a “hyphenated American” and wants to live in a “colorblind” society.

It's funny, because the two groups you've described are diametrically opposed. The former are red solidly red, while "color blindness is racist" is pretty solidly blue.

My dad rejects the hyphenated American label. He prefers to be called just “an American.” These days that’s a right wing view.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#453

Post by rayiner » Sat, May 08, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

bingbong70 wrote: post #374

rayiner wrote: post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

>I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. Learning this history is the first step of "doing something about it". Brown/black people should know their history too, we can't just paper over the historic criminality of certain groups of people because it feels uncomfort…

The job of education is to maximize the potential of my kid, not to use my kid as a vehicle to fix society’s problems.

As to your claim of immigrants “sucking up”—if I wanted to suck up to elite whites I’d embrace teaching kids of color about “white supremacy.” If I didn’t think it would hurt my kid I would have no incentivize to oppose it.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#454

Post by lazide » Sat, May 08, 2021, 12:38 AM UTC

reasons wrote: post #437

lazide wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All with different interpretations of the Christian god (or not Christian, as in the Jewish diaspora). The Spanish who settled colonies in Florida and California, the French in Louisiana, the English, Polish, and German settlers in Jamestown would all struggle to agree on a common set of definitions or rituals except there was a bible in there somewhere. I was led in prayer at public schools, and private - doesn’t me…

How do you see it that way? What if it were mathematicians from all over armed with the same Calculus book hand waving that everyone should ignore the idiosyncrasies of their alma mater or their professor's flavor of finding derivatives? What if the founding documents they wrote all spoke highly of Calculus; Calculus books in every classroom. To me it sounds like people weren't hand waving away God, but setting aside…

You’re having a rather odd take on these words! I never said they were hand waving away God. I said they were hand waving all the important details of what religion they were referring to, and about the only thing anyone seemed to agree on is a God somewhere (Usually) and we won’t get into most of the details. Many prominent founding fathers were atheist or agnostic, but that wasn’t the majority.

The American approach is a ‘if we don’t look too hard, it’ll be ok’, since otherwise you end up with the literal large scale religious wars that pushed many of these groups here in the first place from Europe. Or society wide pogroms like Anglicans/Protestants/Catholics have done to each other constantly elsewhere.

And if you think Catholics/Protestants/Mormons/Baptists, etc are hanging out in the same church at any scale, we must hang out with very, very different crowds. They are not all deriving calculus from the same book - or all even agreeing that calculus exists.

A closer analogy would be a bunch of high school English teachers arguing that math exists, and one knows algebra one, another knows calculus, another knows trig, and another is doing arithmetic in base 16 while everyone else is using base 10. And they all think the other is wrong, but not completely so.

But there is no actual math teacher in sight.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#455

Post by kian » Sat, May 08, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

bingbong70 wrote: post #443

kian wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first step to doing something about it is actually believing you're capable of it. I believe what the person you are responding to is trying to get across is that if we first focused on the achievements of a people, then when they later learn of the hardships endured, they will have a belief in themselves that they have the power to change it. And as importantly, that doing things in the other direction may have…

Do Jewish parents "save their children" from history lessons and postpone them? When is the holocaust and other info about historic anti-semitism introduced? I would be surprised to hear that they delay this, I believe some of these historical stories/events are part of their religious studies as children. Giving the oppressive system a pass for X number of years and letting children walk through society ignorant of…

We are not saying to "postpone" history lessons, but to contextualize them with other historical facts that are more important. While the holocaust is extremely important, I believe that a celebration of their shared culture, including the Torah, occurs first in Jewish homes, as the accumulated wisdom, the greatest and longest-lasting achievement of the Jewish faith and peoples.

Likewise, in a documentary series on any given people, perhaps episode two could focus on the difficulties, after episode one contextualized them with their successes?

I don't believe anyone suggested hiding or otherwise not sharing the history of oppression of any people in this comment thread. I recommend that you look back through and consider why you came away with a different impression.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#456

Post by throwawaysea » Sat, May 08, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

breakyerself wrote: post #440

throwawaysea wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen the same list elsewhere in social media. I think it's a copy-pasted text that's in frequent use. Examples pulled from a search: https://twitter.com/_SAWI__/status/1299096866789834754 https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/mpabvz/serious_r...

Can I just say this makes me really happy to see this getting around. The list I shared here is my own compilation. It's nice to see others have found it useful.

It’s interesting that it has gotten around even without your knowledge. If I may ask do you have a large following on some social media platform, from where it originated or spread out?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#457

Post by sagichmal » Sat, May 08, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

esyir wrote: post #359

breakyerself wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be missing my point. There ARE systemic disadvantages to being black. I get that you're of the opinion that telling people about racial inequality can demotivate them and make them feel fatalistic about their futures, but I don't necessarily agree with your assessment to the degree this is the case and you seem to think there is no room for nuance here. We must stop talking about this immediately. People…

The issue is that it's not framed that way. It's framed as all or nothing, that blacks fail only because of racism. That's my lk entire issue. The message isn'tthat they're disadvantaged, the message is that there is 0 chance. One encourages them to hold out as it gets better, the other for them to give up till it gets better. I'm not calling it the root of all problems either, so please don't put words in my mouth.…

No, it isn't framed as all or nothing.

Principally because "the framing" isn't some well-defined objective thing, it's all a matter of perception, which means it's always possible to read whatever narrative you like into the facts.

Like this:

> the narrative around racism being the sole and primary cause of failure.

This perception is yours, not the facts on the ground.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#458

Post by bourgwaletariat » Sat, May 08, 2021, 2:50 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #436

bourgwaletariat wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's that you're a woman or that you're empathetic, good natured, choose to avoid conflict, in addition to being technically skilled. There does seem to be a correlation between the two, but in my experience, what you're discussing here isn't unique to women. I see it happen to a lot of men as well, including myself. They are manipulators. Their skill isn't in getting their job done, it's in manipulating…

I have reason to believe that my gender is a factor. I'm absolutely not suggesting that no one ever does any men dirty. I did some volunteer work in town for a couple of organizations that are supposedly trying to do economic development and I was trying to use that as a means to make connections and develop a better income. I had applied for a job locally and the guy that got it fits your terrific description: He's…

That is a terrible situation. We are overrun by vampires, leeches, skimmers and thieves. People with zero ethics or conscience.

They have an advantage. Lauded in silicon valley, politics, corporations.

Sociopaths and psychopaths. I don't know what the solution is. I don't think they can be fixed. Sometimes, removing the leeches causes more damage. They come after you and come after you. They are relentless in their defense of ego and pursuit of undue fame and fortune.

Most of the others are cowards, who won't stand up to them. Afraid of the abuse. "Is that the hill you want to die on?"

"Why are you causing conflict?"

Just go along with it.

Keep your head down.

Tall poppy syndrome.

Etc.

We are in real trouble.

The facts are clear. We can look at them and see what reality is. But we are intentionally choosing another path.

Why?

I don't understand why.

I think we've relied on a formula for human interaction that seems good for a little while. Stable. Beneficial. Suddenly collapsing into chaos.

Unethical, unconscionable people slowly gain power until revolution erupts. They will not. They refuse to give up any power. They shape the the violence and conflict to profit from that too.

We are still driven by primitive emotions. Fear. Lust. Those emotions are used to manipulate the unconscious masses into poverty and powerlessness.

A society built on a set of rules that benefits attributes of human character we resent in the individuals around us can't lead to good attributes.

That guy was wrought full of greed. He would steal your ideas. Lie. Cheat. We hate those character traits, but reward them handsomely.

It'll never work.

We have to think of something new. Sadly, it's probably too late. We've predicted it for thousands of years and seen it happen countless times without changing our ways.

Why now?

Following the rules is a disadvantage. Integrity is an evolutionarily disadvantageous trait. Honesty is the worst policy.

Ulterior motives. Plotting. Conniving. Betrayal. These will always win the game against someone playing by the rules.

Whose rules?

I don't know. I don't know what the rules are anymore.

I'm going to be good anyway and hope it rights itself. Someone is going to have to clean up all the rubble and feed people and give them shelter.

Who is that going to be?

Look for the helpers.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#459

Post by jacobolus » Sat, May 08, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #451

jacobolus wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White “progressives” have not made Omar (or Tlaib) the face of anything, nor does Omar pretend to speak for all Muslims (or all Somali refugees for that matter). Omar also does not have “extreme” views; she is a mainstream Democrat with mainstream center-left policy positions. Omar gets “amplified” predominantly because Fox News inter al. keep dumping on her all the time, and shrieking about what an “extremist” she i…

> White “progressives” have not made Omar (or Tlaib) the face of anything, nor does Omar pretend to speak for all Muslims (or all Somali refugees for that matter). Omar also does not have “extreme” views; she is a mainstream Democrat with mainstream center-left policy positions. Not even Democrats think she’s a “mainstream Democrat.” Political she’s squarely in the progressive wing. But my point was theological. She…

> theological. She has extreme views on social issues recognized by virtually no American Muslim scholars

She does not purport to be a religious scholar or an authority on religion...

Her politics seem broadly comparable to the majority of young Muslims (say, born > 1980) I have met in cosmopolitan American cities. These tend to be secularized and at least roughly share the values of their non-Muslim peers. Should such people not be allowed to participate in the political process?

I don’t understand at all where you are going with this line of criticism. You think young Muslims should be forced to have the same views on e.g. women’s rights, LGBT rights, inter-ethnic relationships, and reproductive health that their immigrant parents and grandparents had? You want secularized Muslims to stop wearing headscarves? You think Muslim-American politicians should ask Saudi clerics to decide their political positions? ...?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#460

Post by exporectomy » Sat, May 08, 2021, 3:33 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #150

exporectomy wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think American culture has potentially gone down an ever-worsening path that comes from assuming blacks and whites are inherently identical. That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. That means there's an oppressor who is evil and deserves punishment. What if the fundamental assumption isn't true? How long do you keep punishing the oppressor for? Not to…

Wait, what? We went from "teaching about systemic racism might be harmful", to "systemic racism doesn't exist", to "Blacks are inherently different from other races, which will naturally lead to different outcomes" to "critical race theory might lead to nazism." This is a wild rollercoaster of a thread and I want off of it. To jump off the original commenter's point, if you're concerned that there might be harmful ou…

> teaching them that their race makes them inherently less suited for certain tasks?

No. You're confusing group outcomes with individual ones.

To avoid the emotion of racism, you can look at all Americans instead. Average income in the US is $30,000/year. Is it wrong to teach that to kids? No. Does it cause them to fatalistically assume they can't earn more than that because they're unlucky to be American? No. Each individual kid might not be one of the destined-for-low-wages people.