Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#451

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:19 AM UTC

FFRefresh wrote: post #329

ForHackernews wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to get really pedantic about it, a company is not a "group of people": a company is a particular legal structure for organising a profit-making enterprise. So yes, it is an inanimate entity. When we say things like "that Lions football team suffered a crushing defeat", we're engaging in metonymy -- referring to the suffering of the members of the team but speaking metaphorically about "the team".

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think whatever arbitrary legal structure there is around a group of people somehow makes the organization not human. For example, I think it's perfectly normalized to say "that Detroit Lions team suffered a crushing defeat", even though the Detroit Lions are a profit-making enterprise.

I'll go with, there is a group of people involved with a corporation, but it's largely decoupled from the corporation itself.

The group of people are the labourers being exploited, and they're separate from the group of owners that the corporation represents.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#452

Post by heavyset_go » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:19 AM UTC

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #58

unethical_ban wrote: post #21

Occasionally, Twitter provides some nice insights in digestible forms (of course, nuance gets stripped). I saw a post recently that said something like "We watch Star Trek and marvel at their post-scarcity world. We are living in a post-scarcity world now, but all the benefits are being funneled by wage slaves up to the 0.1%." Paraphrased. I was talking with a friend who mentioned that a local pizza place is offering…

The bottom 99.9% in America enjoy healthcare, communications, caloric intake, political freedom, public services, education and safety from violence unprecedented in human history. By almost every metric society is better off now than it was in the 1950's, 1800's, etc. The over-focus on the negative propels us toward greater collective good - up to a point. We would do better as a society to revert to a mean that exp…

> The bottom 99.9% in America enjoy healthcare

There are millions of people who are eligible for Medicaid but can't receive it because their states never expanded Medicaid under the ACA, and there are even more people who cannot afford health insurance, but aren't eligible for Medicaid.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#453

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC

kukx wrote: post #406

andrei_says_ wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Maintaining laws which force working employees into poverty in order to support inadequate business models is not the solution. Employees outnumber business owners - more people having spending power is vital for the economy.

Please, define what is a poverty wage, it is important. How much stuff one should afford to avoid being called poor. What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? I can see only one, automate the jobs away to reduce the costs, namely replace humans with robots. But, if we consider these crappy jobs, what about people that are not qualified/able to do any more advanced jobs? People have vastly different c…

> define what is a poverty wage, it is important.

If you work full time as an adult and are Medicaid eligible, you’re being paid poverty wages.

> What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant?

Raise the prices.

It’s already happened anyway, the market has plenty of elasticity. Restauranteurs always whine about how impossible it is to raise prices, yet they seem to manage to do so just fine.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#454

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #298

maybelsyrup wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Good! I've been hearing about "the business side of the problem" my entire life -- lectured sternly about it, in many cases. All while few of the Adults and Experts - people with Real Power, in other words - dare even mention some of the topics laid out in the link. > I'm just saying that both sides of the equation need to be examined, i.e…

If a business closes, lots of people lose employment + business owners become more employment competition. Increasing unemployment wrecks wages. It is also not free to give unemployment benefits, it requires higher taxation which moves the sustainability bar higher and more businesses close, etc etc.

This really just raises the question on why employees don't get a share of profits.

They take on all the same risk as owners do

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#455

Post by RileyJames » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #405

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

One concern is that this makes teenage employees relatively more attractive and so increases the adult unemployment rate above what it would be with a uniform minimum wage.

Really? The OP provided an example of country and a policy.

You’ve stated an opinion, as a theory with zero evidence.

Youth unemployment in Australia is ~double the unemployment rate. 11.8% vs 5.6%

https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/youth-unemployment-ra...

Employment is more complex than hourly wage.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#456

Post by humanrebar » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC

rbg246 wrote: post #403

humanrebar wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

Any gap in labor law leads to exploitation by a business owner, anything that can lead to business advantage gets used. Besides I found really distasteful when I was in my 20s being told that I didn't need the additional money because I didn't have a mortgage. I don't think we need to rely on employer moralism, so Dickensian.

I'm not arguing for ageism. I'm only arguing that "poverty wage" isn't a helpful term.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#457

Post by catmanjan » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC

sharkjacobs wrote: post #440

bradleyjg wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One concern is that this makes teenage employees relatively more attractive and so increases the adult unemployment rate above what it would be with a uniform minimum wage.

Is this a big issue in Australia?

Sort of, it's well known that you're unlikely to get a job at McDonald's as an adult

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#458

Post by humanrebar » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:22 AM UTC

pnutjam wrote: post #408

humanrebar wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

How do you feel about kids saving for or working while attending college? It's pretty rich to say people don't deserve money when they need it.

I worked while attending college. I suspect the supply of those jobs will be affected, meaning marginally employable youth will just be unemployed.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#459

Post by simfree » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:22 AM UTC

ericbarrett wrote: post #283

simfree wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dicks, Burgerville (mostly unionized), Burgermaster, In N Out and other regional chains exist, along with a plethora of single location independent fast food restaurants.

All those regional chains you mentioned pay significantly better than McDonalds, YUM, etc. as well.

Yes, the point of most franchised chains is to extract wealth from communities rather than invest in a stable, skilled workforce delivering a good product.

McDonalds, YUM Brands, et all charge large franchise fees and force use of particular vendors and business practices to ensure they extract as much income as possible from their franchisees.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#460

Post by AnotherGoodName » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:23 AM UTC

sharkjacobs wrote: post #440

bradleyjg wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One concern is that this makes teenage employees relatively more attractive and so increases the adult unemployment rate above what it would be with a uniform minimum wage.

Is this a big issue in Australia?

It's not. It really only affects those working part time jobs from 15 to the age of 18. Full time work is not allowed in most Australian states until the age of 17.

There's far fewer 15-18 year olds than there are 18-65 year olds. There's also fewer again that can work during school hours.

The idea that teenagers are being paid too much or have an advantage in Australians case and that therefore this should prevent changes to minimum wage laws is just a distraction. It keeps getting brought up by people desperate to push a position but who don't want to argue about the far bigger issue of adults trying to survive on minimum wage. Teenagers are an edge case in this discussion and they really shouldn't be the focus.