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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At first, you are shocked when you hear some insensitive comments made around you. Then you realize no one else even notices, so it must be something wrong with you. I think is important to talk about because insensitive comments aren’t always clear. Finding a good way to talk about comments in a healthy way is the difference between me having more peace or stewing. Sometimes people don’t know what they’re saying i…

The trick to what happened in your example is that Dev2 was able to find someone in the office (Colleague) they trusted to talk about the situation. In some organizations I’ve been in, he could have talked to Dev3, who tells them to “not be so sensitive”, then tells other devs about how Dev2 played the race card. Dev3 is more common than Colleague. Hell, Dev1 being an idiot and not learning to maybe adjust his langua…

Yes, and this is what makes it so hard and sort of a wicked problem.

This is a “best case scenario” but there’s lots of other worse outcomes like the one you mention, or if dev2 reported Dev1 for a microaggression.

I think the important, and hard part, is to have trust and existing relationships where people can discuss these types of scenarios.

Also my perception is that Dev1 was not an idiot and did not need to do anything for his language and the moral here is that Dev2 was able to learn more context around Dev1’s speech so they understood that there was nothing racial about it. We all could have read lots of books about race and Dev1’s statement should not have changed.

But that doesn’t mean that Dev3 is right.

I think we want to train and improve Dev3s so they become more like Colleague.

And we also want to build more relationships like between Dev2 and Colleague so that Dev2 could talk to Dev1 directly.

I don’t like advice that people should be more thick skinned, because for every scenario where the misunderstanding is on the part of Dev2 there are lots of scenarios where the statement is racist.

Maybe the heuristic is that we should be more curious before judging.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like she’s experienced a lot of inappropriate and difficult things explicitly about gender. My only question was the cultural fit — we don’t know for sure that gender had anything to do with it. Often times when people are fired not only can you never tell them why, they are incapable of seeing, assessing, and recognizing their own flaws (particular when it comes to personal interaction versus quantitative m…

"Culture fit" without any other explanation is fairly solid evidence. First off, programming is one of the most "culture agnostic" jobs I've worked - if you're a high performer, you can absolutely get away with being an abrasive asshole. At least, if you're male. That's slowly changing, but I still find the social skills of the average programmer to be significantly below what I'd expect from, say, a minimum wage cas…

We don’t know that issues were or weren’t discussed with her. She just might not have put 2+2 together. I also don’t agree that you can sometimes get away with being an asshole if you’re a high performer… there certainly are environments where that’s the case but equally there plenty of others where it doesn’t cut it. I remember telling another team who I (previously) worked for, to which he replied “that guy? He’s impossible to work with.” Not too much later he was let go despite all his accolades and status.

I’ve seen enough assholes and inadvertent jerks have zero ability to reflect on their lack of EQ to ever be able to understand why things didn’t work out for them. They always blame it on others. I don’t know if that’s the case here or not, but I’d never take a random blog post as complete truth of a situation that involves multiple people and subjective judgement rendered.

It reminds me of a recent posting to HN about an Apple employee who seemed to go thru hell. Her rant was so extreme and unprofessional in its rant-y-ness it made me heavily question her own judgment and behavior. She made have been in a toxic environment, to which she may or may not have equally contributed without realizing it.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#453
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"lack of diversity actually works to the detriment of tech companies. " Tech companies are diverse, more so than most companies. You mean to say 'not the right kind of diverse'. The ridiculous, Monty Python conversation that nobody wants to have, is that since White Americans are slightly underrepresented, but Asian Americans are about 600% over-represented ... which means getting the 'right' kind of diversity litera…

What’s funny to me is that people are only complaining about diversity in the US and Europe. Although I have seen a few articles about class based diversity in Latin America and India. Maybe I am missing something but I don’t see complaints about diversity in Arabia, Persia, African Regions, Asian regions. Yet there are historic multi-ethnic conflicts in most of not all of these areas. Take the Hausa, Fula, Igbo, and…

Diversity in the West basically means 'Not Just White People' due to historical power asymmetries, and the fact that at least in the 'New World', 'race' is not supposed to be a defining feature of national identity, or at least for some. It's slightly more of a paradox outside the New World because ethnicity and nationality are really tightly intertwined.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#454
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Some things went well, others not so well. I am not giving you a list specifying each. It has nothing to do with your technical skills; that is normal to have room for improvement. We just feel there is a lack of chemistry with the team." > >This is just the way things are, especially in tech. It's not sexist, it's just unfair and dumb and political. And it's applied to all individuals. I've had it applied to me. I…

> may not be sexist in your case but perhaps so in the author's. 'Perhaps' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. I'm convinced social media is raising a generation of mind-readers.

I'm convinced it has made people a bit lacking in resilience. Everything anyone utters is suspect or to be picked apart to find even a hint of offensive content.

Some might say we're just surfacing issues that society has repressed in an unhealthy way, and I understand that to a degree, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far.

Not everything is racist, sexist, rude, or malicious, even unintentionally. That someone interprets or perceives such a thing shouldn't mean we automatically validate or legitimize that perception.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#455
post #104

Tech certainly does have a diversity problem, by which I mean lack of diversity actually works to the detriment of tech companies. Yes, from the POV of companies who are hiring, this is largely a pipeline problem. No, tech companies aren't going to solve this problem directly themselves. But, what tech companies can do is change their candidate sourcing practices. I'm in favor of some version of the Rooney Rule [0] i…

The Rooney Rule sounds good in theory, and yet 28 out of 32 head coaches in the NFL are white. (For reference, only about 25 percent of NFL players are white.)

How many were white before the Rooney rule?

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#456
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far more than 3% of my white tech colleagues have been Jewish, despite making up only 3% of the US and California populations. Would you claim this implies a pro-Jewish, anti-Gentile tech hiring bias? I would disagree with you, and suggest that your kind of logic leads to very dark places.

I would argue that Jewish people are overrepresented in higher education than other groups and generally occupy a higher class level than more recent immigrants or groups under systemic oppression by the legal system in recent decades. Most Jewish families at this point have been in this country for several generations now building roots for their families, just like the Italians and Irish at this point who also came…

That is interesting. I didn't know that whites, who make up 73% of the US population, were so underrepresented not only in Silicon Valley but also at UC Berkeley.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#457
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why isn't some company or founder dipping into this underutilized labor pool and blowing everybody's doors off? That's a real question, and I don't have a good answer.

Because that underutilized labor pool is also pretty green. It's hard to build a product with smart, talented developers who haven't spent a bunch of years learning the ecosystem. There's really no good substitute for the apprenticeship young devs get by being exposed to best practices, senior developers who can cut through problems that they've seen before, configure work flows, etc. That apprenticeship is expensive…

> It's hard to build a product with smart, talented developers who haven't spent a bunch of years learning the ecosystem.

And, yet, YC funds these kinds of companies all the time. So why isn't YC tapping that pool?

> But that's made one level more complicated when you've got a diversity of cultures in the room

I don't buy that.

Tech happily on a daily basis deals with people who can barely speak the same language.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#458
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe the problem with diversity in tech is a retention and training problem, not a pipeline problem. I saw one guy setting up a hiring pipeline in large industrial/tech company in the south, and changing the face of a office for that company. - When he start : The city is 60% black, almost not black dev. A few in IT/Support. - He strike a deal with a local bootcamp, being extremely specific on the training con…

To be clear, I don’t think input pipelines are not a problem at all, I think they’re just a part of the problem. Sounds like this person is doing things right by investing time and effort across pipeline AND developing talent once hired. You can’t have success without both and the latter is often a secondary consideration at best.

you are very right. Junior hire were strategically placed in 'ok' teams. they had common "low-key" projects on top of their regular assignments, and a particular effort was put on exposing them to various roles ( dev, TPM, BA, design ). The idea was to create a community of new hires that can tap into to reach for help, advices and the like.

This person took advantage of a large company with a fat belly to do awesome thing. I'm not even sure they realized.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a random person on the internet and we're unlikely to cross paths, but I would _strongly_ recommend hiring a good HR advisor and people who can explain the problems in your comment. Admitting your mindset isn't productive is hard, but I'd recommend some introspection here. > Yes, I'm a white male, but I'm considering hiring people for the first time and this sort of thing TERRIFIES me because I genuinely want to…

> Admitting your mindset isn't productive is hard Nah, I am good at admitting fault given sufficient reasoning or evidence, unlike most people. But if I think I have a point, I may double down on it. Observe: > You're not "helping out" by hiring a women, or a person of color. This mindset has set you up for failure before even starting. Yeah, maybe. I was trying to suggest that I... ok, fine. > If there's a valid rea…

An impressively nuanced answer! Thank you.

And whilst I certainly do not wish to shame you. (Consenting adults can do as they please, enjoy what they please, etc.) as someone with responsibility for hiring and firing I'm glad you can see how it could lead someone to feel uncomfortable in a work environment.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#460
post #448
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Strikingly white"? Tech industry in California is probably the least white white collar industry in this country.

You have to frame it relative to the pipeline to see how overt this bias is. In the CompSci major at UC berkely, for example, only 16% were white (1). Yet when you look at the makeup of some of the FANGs in the bay area, most are ~50% white or more (2). That is striking to me. 1. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-califo... 2. https://www.wired.com/story/five-years-tech-diversity-report...

How many programmers graduate from Berkeley each year and how many are employed in the FANGs in the Bay Area? How many Berkeley graduates are in the top 0.01% of available talent, given all the other people who want to work for FANG’s in the Bay Area?
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