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No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

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Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#451
Hanlon's Razor applies here, I believe, as in: "relax, not everyone is out to get you".

The open source ingestion governance process at every client I've been involved with making such decisions is completely divorced from the procurement process. Technical leads everywhere should be pushing to integrate them as a single entwined process like with closed-source software, for prioritized support of code put into operational production pipelines. As a designer, it is a huge risk in my eyes to select open source software, put millions of dollars per hour/day of 24x7x365 processing onto it, and ignore the 24x7x365 support question.

Within most big companies, getting governance sign off to onboard open source that touches production pipelines is grueling enough, and there is a culture where if procurement isn't involved from the beginning of the governance discussions as a stakeholder, procurement will hassle you to no end because they have their own liability concerns to address for the company ("how do we know we'll get the support we pay for?", "what recourse do we have if we don't?", "what are their terms?", "how do we logistically pay them?", etc.). Most employees at big corporations will choose the path of least resistance; I'm only sometimes successful at getting payment to open source teams by pointing out the risk and audit liabilities of putting into production open source with no solid support story, the inertia is so great.

When the business asks for clarification ("Wait, I thought this is open source so it's free and we don't have to pay?"), make a clear, simple case to make that when you pay a regular amount each year on par with closed-source support contracts, the key developers/maintainers respond prioritizing your support requests, with no worse or better response results on average than closed-source support organizations. Show the numbers of what is put at risk when (not if, never, ever if) it breaks, and the value of domain experts to fix the break (do not ever fall for the jibe, "Aren't you good enough a programmer to fix this open source code?" [1]). And stop with the open source proselytizing in front of the procurement people; help them get their job done, translate into terms they speak. The open source benefit within a for-profit company should never be about the pecuniary; it is faster innovation and problem-solving, forming a better overall solution delivery than closed-source alternatives. Sell procurement on how open source is a frictionless evaluation and onboarding experience compared with closed source. No more "call for pricing". No more expensive shelfware. An adopting company gets more of a guarantee it will be a fit for purpose before payment than they get from the vast majority of closed-source vendors on their master list.

On the other side, the open source community needs to meet corporations halfway if they want routine compensation for open source work. There are lots, and lots, and lots of forms to fill out. Companies really hate publishing these forms out in public, but 98% of the content in these forms ask the same questions between different companies. Start building standards for open source teams to follow of what questions to anticipate to fill out. Start creating standards of support procedures to publish to inquiring companies' procurement departments trying to gauge whether they can trust their production support to an open source team. There's lots more to add here, but in general open source teams make procurement departments really work extra hard to pay money, and procurement officers really, really hate that. It already rubs many procurement agents the wrong way that software solutions in general are not super-fungible due to the power law and network effects we tend to take for granted in the industry; they are used to a highly-asymmetric relationship where vendors come hat in hand through their doors as one of many near-identical competitors, and these procurement professionals strongly dislike vendors with strong negotiating leverage because in their world, everyone is out to get their company. Lots of open source teams who want to be paid for their work shoot themselves in the feet, multiple times, by not spending the time it takes to find out what the procurement people need and delivering that with a smile.

I've seen this discussion at the beginning of open source, and I know all the rebuttals. My favorite is, "if I wanted a business to make money, I would have set one up, DUH. I just want to code, put it out there, and get paid for it." Think of it as handshaking a protocol. We're used to UDP, TCP, HTTPS, TLS, etc., but there is an entire business language out there to interface with, consisting of just as intricate rules. They come dressed in meetings, contracts, forms, questionnaires, and so on, and are part of the story of how humans build enormous loosely-coupled organizations that still get amazing accomplishments done despite all the error faults we witness every day. If you want to access money, then you engage those protocols, just like if Grandma wants to access cat pictures, she engages the user protocols with her smartphone (log in, pick an app, etc.).

[1] One possible response is, "I'm an expert at fixing [our company]'s internal systems' problems. That open source team are the world experts at fixing [open source project]'s problems that would take me 100x more time to come up to speed, as if I was starting a new job, because it is so large and addresses such a large problem domain for us."

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want GPL. I want a license that prevents unpaid use by any entity that has any stakeholder worth more than a billion USD. That's it. That's all I want. MIT-Billionaires. Want to take funding from A16Z? That's a million a year for the license or something that maybe scales with a market cap just to level the playing field between a funded startup and Apple Computers. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple, but I don…

May I suggest something along the lines of Dmytri Kleiner's Peer Production License? As discussed more generally on P2P Foundation: http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Copyfarleft

Hey, original author of the Peer Production license here.

AMA

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#453
post #52

I've been noticing more push back against the open source bargain lately. Years ago software was fully build on the backs of a multitude of giants within their niche domain. But for a while now large companies have been adopting a model of taking from open source contributions and raking in billions. The original social bargain of "pay it on" has been broken by the Bezos of the world raking in billions. And yes, as o…

The only reason this ‘bargain’ existed at all in the first place was because of the GPL and other more restrictive licenses which encoded this ‘bargain’ into their verbage.

The current version of the ‘bargain’ - use MIT or BSD and expect more participation as a result - has never been the norm. The norm is corporate programmers taking whatever code they can and using it.

The norm is a cleanroom implementation of open source software written because companies would rather pay for that implementation rather than muck around in open source licensed code (I watched Oracle do this with several MySQL feature/bug fix patches).

And so here we are. Yet Another MIT License Regret.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#454
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the police would ransack my family home after a fire you could probably write the same article. Charred RPi's and lots of computer parts, enough wiring for a new house, lots of chemicals (cleaners, fertilizers, other chemical agents with regular gardening use cases), ultimate survival guide and related parts ("This guy was prepping for something!"). The naming of suspects is just adding insult to injury. If he's i…

Do you have any ammonium nitrate though? I mean, chances are he was just some pyro and not actually interested in bombing/killing people. But it's dumb to do that in a flat.

I have a garden of about 400 m2. So yes, there are different 20kg bags of fertilizer in the shed. Ammonium nitrate being NPK 34-0-0 (wiki), I think I can get pretty close to that with boosting fertilizer (like 25-5-5 or something). The point is that one could write a hit piece with only "true" information about me. I even have both "rightwing" and "leftwing" extremist propaganda in my house! (Say, Nozick and Solzjenitsyn. Or Nietzsche and Orwell.)

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#455
post #426
post #21

Seriously. What's the point of open source if companies just steal it, build billion dollar industries on top, and then lock everything down? Apple is telling us we can't run our own software on their goddamned devices, yet they built their empire on open source. Look at Facebook, Google, Amazon. They've extracted all the blood they can and given us back scraps. AWS is repackaged software you pay more for. Yes, it's…

> Seriously. What's the point of open source if companies just steal it, build billion dollar industries on top, and then lock everything down? To nitpick: They are not stealing it, they're using it per the license terms. Don't like that? Well, choose a different license. That being said, I think there's an underlying point here. The "business-friendly" open source movement co-opted the idealistic free software movem…

My first interaction with the internet was in the mid-to-late 90's, first AOL then IRC (if ZithTar rings a bell, please reach out), and other than a few super-specific niche communities I also feel looking back that it was a cesspool. I was maybe 10-12 years old then but I can't ever remember a time when the internet was objectively pleasant in a broad sense.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#456
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought free software was all about allowing people to create value from it?

Even though I believe it is more about the principles than the economics, where am I saying otherwise? The problem I am talking about is the asymmetry: Apple (Amazon, Google, MS, etc) can create value from the work from FOSS developers, but FOSS developers can not create value from the work of Apple (Amazon, Google, MS, etc).

I would say that developers have been able to create a lot of value building on top of Android (Google), Flutter (Google), and .Net Core (Microsoft).

I could probably dig up specifically an Amazon open source example, but I think you can convincingly argue that devs have created a ton of value building on top of the work on AWS.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, this is a fairly trivial loophole to close if you have a lawyer who knows what they're doing. In fact, you don't even need to close the loophole. You just need to make FAANG employees pause long enough to worry that they might not comply, deterring them from using said library.

How does it help you if they don't use your lib? Why do you publish your work in the first place? To get donations? That's not what open source was invented for. If you don't want people to use your work, don't publish it. Publishing has the totally selfish goal of getting others to help you by trying things out, report bugs and improvements and some of them to contribute those things to you. Don't publish if you don…

I think Free Software was intended to receive money and replace proprietary software in its entirety.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you're asking, can you elaborate? Edit: I guess you're asking about 'ESR' and 'RMS.' ESR = Eric Raymond, an early proponent of open source as a communal development model ( http://www.catb.org/~esr/open-source.html ). RMS is Richard Stallman, the originator of the GNU project on which the Linux kernel is based, as well as the GPL. RMS disagrees with ESR, in that he argues that the term "open s…

No, the question was supposed to illustrate that if you have that approach to language, then communication is impossible. There needs to be a shared notion of what certain words and concepts mean. You claimed that they mean whatever some person claims them to mean. So the question to you was what do your words mean, since with that entirely freewheeling approach to language, nobody here can know what you meant.

So, in a nutshell: https://xkcd.com/1860/

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#459
post #436
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original copyright holder can require the fork be distinguishable and non-confusable with the original project. There is plenty of precedent in that respect. There isn't much that can be done with lax distribution licenses, but there is still much that can be done under copyright law.

>fork be distinguishable and non-confusable You're mostly talking about trademarks at that point, not copyright.

No, trademarks are irrelevant at this point. The original author of a work retains copyright in that work, regardless of the license under which derivatives are distributed. If they have distributed their work under a lax license and then chose to stop distributing under that license, a pre-existing recipient of that code does not suddenly gain copyright. They can not claim the project as their own or lead users to believe they have copyright in the materials they are modifying and distributing other than as a derived work.

For this to come under trademark legislation, there would have to be demonstrable trade. That's hard to show in the case of free distribution.

Re: No More Free Work from Marak: Pay Me or Fork This

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's dumb to do that in a flat. One of the other articles refers to some sort of fireproof container outside of the house.

>Cops said FDNY fire marshals are combing through Squire’s charred, first-floor apartment to determine the cause of the blaze, an FDNY spokesperson said. The fact that his apartment is 'charred' suggests he was doing stuff in it. Could be he took the materials with him as he was trying to escape out the back window, or that's just where he was storing them so they wouldn't be found if a search was conducted. I think…

> The fact that his apartment is 'charred' suggests he was doing stuff in it.

Or, it suggests that there was a fire, which is not really up for debate.

> Could be he took the materials with him as he was trying to escape out the back window

You are making up a hypothesis to make someone sound guilty with no evidence.

> I think it's useful that this was reported on, because it could make people more wary of shelling out money to a guy who was recklessly endangering others even if there were no nefarious motives.

This is a poor opinion. First, he has not been found guilty of "reckless endangement", and you are just assuming he's guilty. Do you also expect to see reporting every time someone recklessly endangers others by driving at high speeds through a school zone, or accidently runs through a stop sign?

Publishing accusations of someone (especially a very easily google-able person) being a terrorist is not something that should be done lightly without proof.

Hell, right now I'm pretty sure I have both bleach and ammonia in my apartment as regular cleaning supplies. When combined, these ingredients are dangerous, but that sure as shit doesn't mean I'm endangering others just by possessing them.

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