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USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

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Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#451

Post by crote »

floatboth wrote: post #360
crote wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a 4k @ 60Hz monitor. If I were to buy a laptop, I'd like to connect it and a bunch of USB devices via a single USB C cable. Easy, right? Except that the monitor only supports DisplayPort 1.2. 4k60 requires a bandwidth of 12.54 Gbit/s. DP 1.2 consists of four data lanes, each providing 4.32 GBit/s, so my monitor requires four full lanes. DP 1.3 and up provide at least 7.48 Gbit/s, so 4k60 would only require two…

Yep, docks are known not to request 4 lanes for DP even when there's only a display plugged in. In fact even dongles that don't have anything other than a display output on them sometimes only ever request 2 lanes, sadly.

You can't really blame them, though. The vast, vast majority of users will be absolutely fine with 2 lanes, especially with DP 1.3+. USB C is mainly used on laptops, and your office projector just isn't going to support 8K120 with HDR. Why spent the extra money if virtually nobody needs it?

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#452

Post by pbhjpbhj »

billpg wrote: post #157
derefr wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it could have happened just as well with any other plug. It could have been a non-conforming micro-USB charging port. Either way, it would have nothing to do with “the mess that is USB-C” (i.e. the inability to identify which of the various wire protocols that work over USB-C cables that a USB-C port follows/supports), because such a port isn’t following any of the USB-C-cable compatible standards. It’d be li…

Back in the 80s, I had a device that was powered by a 3.5 connector. This same device had another two 3.5 connectors for the headphones and microphones. Somehow, I got through that time without ever having plugged the power into the microphone socket. I am not that careful.

We have a Lenovo Yoga laptop, the power and headphone sockets are about the same diameter and next to one another. Thankfully mis-plugging hasn't caused any negative hardware issues, just occasional bewilderment.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#453

Post by crote »

pantalaimon wrote: post #326
crote wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing is that for small-bandwidth applications, USB C isn't that difficult to add. Compared to USB A, it's literally a different connector and two additional resistors on the CC pins. The power / data pins of USB C are completely compatible with USB 2.0.

Most computers only have 1-2 USB-C ports, but plenty USB-A ones. You would not want to 'waste' a high-speed port for a webcam.

Yeah, it's a chicken-and-egg problem. As long as most devices are A, most ports will be A as well. And until C ports are more common, it's no use making C devices. That's made even worse because adapters for C female to A male are explicitly forbidden by the specs, so there's no cheap way to support both. A manufacturer could put a female C port on the device and ship both C-to-C and C-to-A cables, but that's expensive.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#454

Post by Latty »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #19
jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

Did you not read the article? Because your response doesn’t address any of the issues brought up in the article. Mainly that all the usb-c cables you sprinkle across your house might not have the same functionality. And if you plug your switch in to one it might charge it, while another will not.

Those problems are hardly unique to USB-C.

With Micro-USB I had charging cables that didn't have data lines in them, Kindle power adaptors that didn't offer enough output for my phone to charge off, and non-standard devices that didn't follow the spec and only worked with certain stuff.

In my experience, it works well enough I've actively only been buying USB-C stuff where it is at all possible to do so for a while now.

It feels like these complaints are inevitable to me: a spec with no flexibility would become redundant too quickly or cost far too much to implement in most devices to ever see widespread adoption.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#455

Post by Kirby64 »

FatalLogic wrote: post #64

Would it be possible for our existing USB-C interfaces (software and hardware) to provide more information to the user? I mean, could the UI tell us: (1) Your external device is and it requests power at 12V, minimum 15W, up to 40W, and it requests data at up to 100Mbps down/5Mbps up (2) Your cable promises to accept power at up to 25W, and data at up to 40Mbps bidirectional (3) I can offer power up to 60W, and data u…

The power portion is already handled by USB-PD protocol. Part of the negotiation protocol is telling each side "what they can offer" and "what they accept" and picking the highest one that matches both sides. It often isn't displayed in software because I'm not sure there's a way (or at least a unified way) to display that back to a host processor.

Data doesn't make sense since USB2 is USB2, there's no context on how 'fast' it is (besides USB high speed vs. standard speed). USB3/Thunderbolt/etc is more complicated, but that's also a tricky behavior.

In principle, I agree that it would be nice if there was a unified software that could tell you what is negotiated and what an upstream device is 'looking for'. I imagine we might eventually get there... maybe... kinda depends on hardware vendors to enable that though.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#456

Post by ahartmetz »

gruez wrote: post #183
ahartmetz wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I tried, and I could charge my Thinkpad using a 5V/2A phone charger and an A->C cable. Very slowly of course, but it worked. If I was somewhere and I had forgotten my laptop charger, I could worry about whether a phone charger will work, but without USB-C, I could be sure that it won't work.

>Well, I tried, and I could charge my Thinkpad using a 5V/2A phone charger and an A->C cable. Is yours a recent model? AFAIK most laptops can't charge using phone chargers. They require high voltage that isn't available on low wattage chargers.

Yes, it's a T14 Gen1 (AMD).

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#457

Post by mcguire »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

I haven't experienced USB-C much yet, but I have a good tangle of micro-USB cables that I need to label:

* Some carry data, but won't charge things.

* Some charge, but don't carry data.

* Some charge at a higher amperage.

Once upon a time, back when we used PS-2 connectors for keyboards and mice, we had the same problem. A keyboard wouldn't work in a mouse port (although they were the same physical connector), but a mouse might work in a keyboard port.

Would it be wrong for me to say I would like to take an old PS-2 cable and strangle anyone who thinks this kind of antics are a good idea?

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#458

Post by Asmod4n »

One solution could be to color codes the cables, so you see if it can support thunderbolt, charging or display port. And then different colours for the speed they support.

Same could be done with the connectors on the device you want to put them in. But I guess at least Apple wouldn't adopt them and simply support everything on every port and cable they sell, making their devices and cables more expensive but easier for customers.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#459

Post by z3ncyberpunk »

rattray wrote: post #246
dcchambers wrote: post #82

USB-C is mostly a mess if you try to get away using the cheapest adapters/cables you can find, that often times won't follow the spec. Most of the issues vanish if you use high-end cables/adapters from reputable manufacturers. This is a departure from the world of Micro USB where most cheap cables worked just as good as "high end" cables. There are caveats. For example, my Nintendo Switch, a major electronics device…

Right, that's what I'd call a mess. The purpose of a standard should be that if a product conforms to it, the consumer can trust that the product will work. That isn't the case with USB-C. I've had some "USB-C" cables that can charge but not transmit video, some that can transmit video but not charge, and some that can do both. It shouldn't be possible to sell a cable that can't do both and call it USB-C.

Much better and cleaner mess than the previous cluster of standards, also with the same cable issues.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#460

Post by pbhjpbhj »

abruzzi wrote: post #323
ethbr0 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a simple problem, and there's a simple solution. Problem: Physical connectors previous encoded information about data/power transfer mode support. When USB C unified the physical connector, that information was lost. Solution: Mandate visually encoded supported standards on the USB cable in colored ring form, a la resistors. Make them plastic, so you can snip them off if the aesthetic bothers. But I should be…

> Solution: Mandate visually encoded supported standards on the USB cable in colored ring form, a la resistors. I agree in principal, but please don't do it with colored rings. Many of us have much more limited color perception due to colorblindness. I recently purchased some 8 cable 1/4" TRS snakes, and the only thing identifying which connector on one side of the snake was connected to a connector on the other side…

>please don't do it with colored rings.

You say that but, and I realise it's pedantic, your comment only supports not limiting the identification to only coloured rings.

Coloured rings would be a very good solution for a large percentage of the users. Glyphs will also fail with the blind, maybe with dyslexics.

Or of interest, would you pay more for glyph coded versions? Just pondering if The Market would ever create a solution.

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