Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#451

Post by spyckie2 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:34 AM UTC

ktaylora wrote: post #428

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

This. There is compelling evidence that UBI, over the short term, really is effective at distributing money to a lot of people in need without a cumbersome burden of proof placed on assessing that need. That's why the treasury department used it for stimulus checks in the US. But long term, we don't understand if UBI is an effective tool for dealing with poverty. In effect, UBI would be like arbitrarily adding $15,00…

The market and production gaming UBI will inevitably happen. It's just people's money.

Actually, in Alaska's UBI program, alcohol and drug abuse go up by 15% after all check day (but crime also goes down significantly as well).

So yes, the payouts of it will create some sort of twisted marketing schedules. I think it would be really cool if the payout was daily (if they can make that happen). It would likely encourage the immediate spend of it into small items (like food)... but also probably drugs.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#452

Post by hexxiiiz » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

UBI is not bad. But without a better housing infrastructure in cities, UBI will be mostly a voucher for landlords, who will disproportionately end up quickly receiving a large fraction of this cashflow. Affordable housing, education, and healthcare need to be addressed. UBI will just kick these cans down the road. That being said, if we are committed to not solving those more fundamental problems, as we seem to be in the US, I welcome UBI as a great alternative to doing absolutely nothing.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#453

Post by spyckie2 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

thinkingkong wrote: post #450

I find it peculiar that Americans even discuss UBI prior to having universal healthcare. The whole idea of universality in this context is to eliminate the requirement to work in order to live a reasonable healthy life. If you implement UBI without healthcare then you maintain a form of economic slavery which more or less states that employment is required to have medical coverage.

Healthcare is one of the most talked about topics in the US. UBI in comparison is still a fringe topic.

You can talk about multiple issues at once, we have that capability.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#454

Post by bnosach » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:39 AM UTC

What happens when your landlord realizes that you have extra $1K to spend every month? What would their incentive be to not jack up your rent? I fail to see any. The prices on most things would just shoot up overnight.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#455

Post by spyckie2 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

blackflame7000 wrote: post #88

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

Exactly. The key to making people happier is not to give them money, but create more jobs that give people meaning and purpose in their lives.

"Create more jobs" the whole reason why Andrew Yang is a proponent of ubi is because he tried doing this for 8 years and realized that the Economy just doesn't work like that.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#456

Post by surround » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

Nice try, they already made Capitalism 2 back in 2001

https://store.steampowered.com/app/638200/Capitalism_2/

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#457

Post by spyckie2 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:50 AM UTC

aetherspawn wrote: post #449

How about we meet in the middle. If you can provide a receipt for accomodation/rent and utilities, you are eligible for the UBI up to the value of your accomodation and utility bills (with limits). The UBI can subsidise classes of certain foods up to a certain value if you keep the receipts, but can not subsidise confectionary, soft drinks, smokes and alcohol. Only fresh food, milk, etc. with a nationally recognised…

This balloons administrative costs and leaves rooms for loopholes - never underestimate the cost of having to patch policy loopholes. It also creates mini games around the UBI system, making it central in people's minds. Ideally you want UBI to be an afterthought, simple and clear, and let people focus on what they really want to focus on - their own work or life.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#458

Post by runarberg » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:51 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #166

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

> A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax.

Maybe a stupid question: But why is it given that a carbon tax is a consumption tax? Why don’t we tax the producers?

Like why not tax the airline companies, as opposed to the air tickets? The gas stations, as opposed to the drivers? etc.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#459

Post by GoToRO » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:51 AM UTC

I don't know what UBI is, but as long as you are not allowed to print your own money, you must be allowed to participate in the (unique) economy, so yeah, somebody must give you a job no matter what. Or, if they don't have one, they can give you UBI.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#460

Post by Bootwizard » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:52 AM UTC

drummer wrote: post #62

UBI is extremely dangerous as long as governments exist. Take what China is doing with their citizen score and it's not hard to imagine what could go wrong. "...imagine how easy it would be for such a government that was also providing a basic income to its citizens to manipulate their citizens based on that basic income that they depended on. If they can deny citizens access to things like public transportation base…

What do you not understand about UNIVERSAL? This is not a need based income, everyone gets it, rich or poor, needy or wealthy.