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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#451

Post by ginko »

101404 wrote: post #450
ginko wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to be any more specific? Last I checked Sweden has been ruled by the the Social Democrats for most of the 20th century, yet Sweden still has a working capitalist economy and more billionaires per capita than the United States.

Just like here in Germany, it is the ideology of the party that changed (a lot). I've been a Social Democrat for over 30 years, that's why I left the social democratic party here.

But if anything the problem with German Social Democrats (and European left-wing parties in general) is that they've moved too far away from left-wing politics and more towards a neo-liberal financial policy.

I don't see how you can call that ultra leftist. For me that would be introducing a planned economy.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#452

Post by dopamean »

anoraca wrote: post #395

It is shocking to me that someone like this could be appointed to and then elected to a state Supreme Court: Bradley's homophobic writings that she wrote in the Marquette University student newspaper in 1992 while an undergraduate stirred controversy during the race.[8][9] She had written letters to the editor and a column for the Marquette Tribune, in which she stated she held no sympathy for AIDS patients because t…

Less shocking when you know Scott Walker picked her.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#453

Post by leetcrew »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #397
cpwright wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools. https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...

First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows…

many (ie, as an absolute number) parents may do a poor job of homeschooling, but I don't think this is enough to condemn the practice overall. although an imperfect measure, american homeschooled students actually have significantly higher average scores on standardized tests than public school students.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#454

Post by dilandau »

anoraca wrote: post #440
dilandau wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hopeful that more states will follow this lead. At the outset the shutdowns have undoubtedly helped prevent a massive tide of sickness that would have overwhelmed the healthcare system. Let's not forget that this was always the point of the shutdowns. It was never about preventing people from getting sick at some point -- it was about limiting a crush of sick people all at once. As Powell said yesterday, 40% of h…

Wouldn't they be bringing in more income from the $600/week in Federal unemployment + state unemployment than they would at their job?

That is short term assistance, it won't be free (taxpayers will have to help cover this), and when it runs out then what?

In other words, I think you completely fail to understand the impact this is having on the poorest people. If they close schools again God help the single parents..

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#455

Post by CathedralBorrow »

claytongulick wrote: post #239
djannzjkzxn wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It spread much faster in New York so we got to see the devastation it can cause. Same will eventually happen everywhere else if the measures to slow the spread are lifted. I don’t get why you’d want to exclude the data from New York when it’s our best example of what a full-scale outbreak looks like in the US.

There's a lot more to it than that. Dig.

With such vague directions, it's easy to state anything. For example:

You are actually wrong and there is ironclad proof out there. Dig.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#456

Post by JPKab »

mehrdadn wrote: post #432
toomuchtodo wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the country has shelter in place orders, transportation has ground to a halt, and everyone is economically challenged, how would they assemble in DC to protest at the Capital Building? This is where you would have to protest for additional economic relief from the federal government. I would not be opposed to constituents showing up at the personal homes of Congressional representatives to protest, but that requir…

You don't need to show up in front of the US Congress to protest. Thankfully if there's one thing the US knows how to do, it's for people to protest wherever they find standing room, and still get their attention. I'm not sure about you but I vividly recall this happening during Occupy Wall Street. People protested (even overnight) in all sorts of settings around the country that had no obvious relevance to Washingto…

Funny how you ask why Americans aren't protesting to get their government to serve their needs instead of the elites, and use the OWS as an example.

OWS protests resulted in zero legislation. Zero.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#457

Post by f2ostie »

xienze wrote: post #316
CathedralBorrow wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. Do you mind showing your work? What do the statistics say about Europe vs. US? I see you mentioned Sweden and Germany but Europe has many more countries than those two.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc. And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

Those numbers shouldn't be taken at face value and should certainly not be compared. For example, here in Belgium every death at a nursing home is counted as a Corona casualty. Which increases the death by Corona massively in comparison with a country not doing that.

An article that really shows that difference is: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lbsbusinessstrategyreview/2020/...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#458

Post by Broken_Hippo »

leetcrew wrote: post #453
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows…

many (ie, as an absolute number) parents may do a poor job of homeschooling, but I don't think this is enough to condemn the practice overall. although an imperfect measure, american homeschooled students actually have significantly higher average scores on standardized tests than public school students.

If a decent percentage do poorly (15-25%), then it is enough to condemn the practice overall - at least in its current form. There aren't nearly enough controls to eliminate this sort of thing, and I think it is probably more expensive to do so. I also think that - apart from test scores - these kids are less likely to be forced to deal with folks different from themselves and a bit less likely to be introduced to concepts their parents disagree with.

Some of the failures can honestly be dealt with if there were proper coordination and oversight: Use an accredited program (for example). Require regular meetings with other students: Say, perhaps, PE at the school a couple times a week at an elementary level. Require parents to pass the tests for the coursework they are planning on teaching the next year or two. Include more variety on standardized tests: If you want to teach sex education or how to follow a recipe, include these sorts of questions on tests.

Until some sort of system is in place to catch the ones that don't really get taught anything other than propaganda, yes, I condemn the entire thing.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#459

Post by dmode »

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

Wisconsin, like many American states, is politically a 3rd world state now. It is so heavily gerrymandered that Republicans are a heavy majority in state senate despite actually receiving fewer votes. It has tried very hard to suppress voting by forcing an in person vote in the peak of pandemic. The Supreme Court in Wisconsin is essentially a Kangaroo court. It reminds me of the political system in the state of Bihar in India where I grew up

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#460

Post by cryptonector »

arkades wrote: post #410
cryptonector wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there's much less support for Executives acting alone. We have a republican form of government where only the legislative branch can pass criminal statutes. In this case the Wisconsin Legislature sued to preserve its powers and prerogatives, as well it should. That does not mean that it won't be amenable to passing supporting statutes.

Which this wasn't - this was the executive acting in concert with public health officials, which are empowered under a founding public health statute, making their exercise of power one delineated by the legislature . Which is literally the court's excuse for the "rulemaking" ruling - that they should have gone through the 12mo+ tradition of regulation-development that legislatively-empowered agencies utilize. Which…

> this was the executive acting in concert with public health officials

That is still the Executive. Those are all executive branch officials. The Executive branch is headed by a singular Executive official (Governor, President), but all of its officials form the Executive branch and power.

> making their exercise of power one delineated by the legislature

That's where the difference of opinion lies.

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