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Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

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Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#451

Post by the_af »

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #425
myle wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year…

Counter? counter-counter-point. Errr... With my first child, I took 12 weeks leave, and helped feed the baby using the bottle, and this arrangement worked out great. He didn't care whether it was bottle or breast, was just happy to eat, and still preferred his relationship with his mom more than with me. Oh yes, that's a thing by the way that seems to get lost in these discussions. With my other 2 kids, they REFUSED…

> [the baby] still preferred his relationship with his mom more than with me. Oh yes, that's a thing by the way that seems to get lost in these discussions.

It doesn't get lost. Yes, babies are closer to their mothers. But they are also closer to fathers that interact with them more often than to fathers who interact with them more briefly, all other things equal. And fathers who take more care of their babies also help the mothers not get overwhelmed while at the same time getting to spend more quality time with their babies.

It doesn't have to mean the baby will prefer the father to the mother, which like you said, is unlikely.

To sum up:

- The mom wins, by not being overwhelmed and not being relegated to a housekeeping/babysitting role (if she doesn't want it).

- The father wins, by being more involved in the raising of his kids, and enjoying more time together with them.

- The baby also wins by getting to know his/her father better at an early and fundamental stage.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#452

Post by crispyporkbites »

JackFr wrote: post #384

Where does the money come from? I'm an American and so I'm less familiar with other countries policies. I get that mandating a very generous family leave policy is wonderful for parents and good for society. To me it seems it's gotta be tough for small business owners though. A business of lets say 8 employees simply cannot afford a paid six month leave without it impacting its performance. How is that handled in tho…

> A business of lets say 8 employees simply cannot afford a paid six month leave without it impacting its performance.

If all it’s competitors have to, what’s the difference?

If you’re really concerned make an exemption for small businesses that allows them to claim the costs back from the government.

Edge cases like this are irrelevant, most Americans are employed by enormous companies that can most definitely afford it.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#453

Post by Dylan16807 »

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #233
brnt wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please demonstrate this cost and how children would be paying for it. Please use sources.

If you want both parents to be independent, then (for the vast majority of people who are not very wealthy) of course both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed. Do you need a source for that? Both of those take time, and that's time taken away from the children, which parents do not have in abundance. Do you need a source for that?

> both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed

Not particularly 'quickly', really.

Keeping it so both parents are able to be employed only requires corporate culture changes, and minor ones at that. The cost is very small and does not hurt children.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#454

Post by neonate »

the_af wrote: post #118
toasterlovin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

> Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away.

The effects of spending 9 months in the body of the mother never go away. No more profound experience is imaginable. Nothing else that happens to a human being will ever come close. So, vitally important as fathers are, the asymmetry is fundamental and permanent.

(I'm talking about the typical developmental experience here; I know there are exceptions.)

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#455

Post by sudders »

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

I think you miss the biggest point. This will have a significant impact on the wages of women. As suddenly women are not longer at a disadvantage when companies need to decide who to hire for a certain position.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#456

Post by HBKXNCUO »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #453
HBKXNCUO wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want both parents to be independent, then (for the vast majority of people who are not very wealthy) of course both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed. Do you need a source for that? Both of those take time, and that's time taken away from the children, which parents do not have in abundance. Do you need a source for that?

> both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed Not particularly 'quickly', really. Keeping it so both parents are able to be employed only requires corporate culture changes, and minor ones at that. The cost is very small and does not hurt children.

Most people don't have enough in savings to last more than half of a year without a job. I'd call that "quickly".

You could try to stop corporations from preferentially hiring people who have recent relevant experience, but I am not going to hold my breath on that.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#457

Post by pkaye »

michaelt wrote: post #99
aantix wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does anything get done? If it were a three person company, one person is now gone for 14 months and legally can’t be replaced? A nightmare for the other two employees.

You can hire a replacement on a 14-month contract. If your company can deal with an employee getting hit by a bus / winning the lottery and quitting, then it can deal with an employee taking maternity/paternity leave.

What if the replacement has a pregnancy? Do they also get the 14 months leave?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#458

Post by blub »

RookyNumbas wrote: post #185
sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

Do we know yet if it has it resulted in an decrease in the gender pay gap and other effects?

It hasn't, or at least the media's whining about the gap as much as everywhere else.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#459

Post by jimmaswell »

jjeaff wrote: post #413
jimmaswell wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is healthy for children to have both a mother and father who is actively present in their lives. Not sure how literally this was meant (and a lot of the rest of the thread assuming a mother/father) but studies show kids do just as well with two parents of any gender.

Not sure how literal your statement was meant, but some parents are non-gendered, non-binary. We shouldn't exclude them either. Every mention needs to include a long list of every possible combination, no matter how rare and edge case. /s

Inclusion is as simple as saying "parents" instead of "mother and father." If you'll read my post again you'll see the wording did include those groups. Maybe examine why you have such a violent knee jerk reaction to these groups being mentioned.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#460

Post by lacker »

camelNotation wrote: post #389
petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

I'm an American who received several months of paid paternity leave when each my children were born (my company is an exception to the rule here in the US). It's not just about the child that is born, it's about your partner as well as your other children. The introduction of a new child is a huge shift for everyone in a family and being there to support your partner during that time makes a huge difference if you sp…

But the biggest benefit of all was in the lives of my older children.

That's how it seemed to me, too. When my second child was born, I was working for Facebook so I got a nice chunk of paternity leave. My wife was breastfeeding, so she was basically with the baby all the time. The most helpful use of my time often wasn't to be the second parent in the same room as the baby, it was to go do something else with our 2-year-old so that he could still do fun stuff that the baby wasn't ready for, and so that at least my wife only had to deal with one kid at a time.

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