Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where? • Hacker News Board

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#451

Post by OldHand2018 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:50 AM UTC

RockIslandLine wrote: post #173

sudosteph wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a talk recently with someone who moved from Chicago to Atlanta. He said it's the property taxes that really kill you there. Allegedly, by moving to GA he decreased his property taxes enough to put an extra 100k towards the mortgage for the same monthly payment. I don't know the hard numbers on that myself, but it was enough to convince me that buying property in Chicago was probably a bad idea.

It's not hard to get that data. The tax rates are public knowledge. Cook county has just over a 2% per year property tax. https://www.cookcountyclerk.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/201...

That document shows how varied the property taxes are in Illinois. Moving from "Chicago" to Atlanta for tax reasons is believable depending on whether the person is moving from the City of Chicago or the Suburbs of Chicago.

> On average, the 2018 property tax bill for a home with a market value of $200,000 would be: * City of Chicago: $3272 * North and Northwest Suburbs (Cook County): $4741 * South and West Suburbs (Cook County): $6268 * Dupage County Suburbs: $4556

My sister used to live out in Kane County and her house, which she sold for about 33% less than my downtown condo is worth, was almost double my property taxes. Nearly 1.5 hours driving from downtown!

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#452

Post by inferiorhuman » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:50 AM UTC

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #445

inferiorhuman wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then they try to change prop 13 to punitively tax the senior citizenry and retirees on fixed income. I'm not going to bother digging into most of the rest of your claims but this is particularly disingenuous. Most of the recent attempts at changing Prop 13 have focused on a split roll that would keep the tax limits on primary residences. Putting grannie out on the street is exactly what the anti-tax zealots (Jarv…

That’s not what repealing prop 13 means..do you know the wording of prop 13? Why should vacation homes be taxed? It’s is an asset. Imagine.. You buy a diamond ring..would you be asked to pay a use tax every time you wear it?

That’s not what repealing prop 13 means..do you know the wording of prop 13?

Yes. In addition to following the flurry of news articles every time some politician dares to bring up Prop 13, I grew up in the Bay Area, and in fact I studied Prop 13 along with its consequences and potential changes while at university. If you'd like to be pedantic, your words were "And then they try to change prop 13".

Nobody (at least nobody with any sort of visibility) has proposed repealing Prop 13 wholesale.

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#453

Post by ttwwmm » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #385

dfsegoat wrote: post #4

Sonoma County, CA here. We've lost more people from our county than any other in the state between 2017-2018 [1], and it is only continuing. From the few of these people I have spoken with - anecdotally: - None left because of the fire risk, specifically. [though some obviously did - 2] - Most left because of the cost of living: $600k avg home price. - Some also left because of political and human environment: We hav…

Can you talk more about the state laws? Are they not discouraging homelessness or are they too weak on petty crime?

Here's some background on homelessness: https://calmatters.org/explainers/californias-homelessness-c...

I don't expect that you intended it this way, but be aware that the way you've phrased the question is likely to offend --- homelessness is complex and most homeless folks aren't criminals.

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#454

Post by ttwwmm » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

borkt wrote: post #276

claudeganon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Kincade Fire was started by PG&E, but somehow whenever wildfires get mentioned, people immediately point to the homeless... I only made this comment because it seems to be feeding into exterminationist sentiments among the wealthy and homeowners. As I pointed out, this led to an attack on an encampment in my old neighborhood.

I am sympathetic to the plight these people are in and truly believe the only reason I'm in a house and not in one of these camps is that I somehow avoided the misfortune that has befallen these individuals. A lot of those who find themselves homeless are only there due to a precipitating crisis that they were unable to get out from under. That being said, they do not belong on the only east-west connecting bike path…

Yeah, they are blocking a transit corridor. On a floodplain. It's not good.

And I agree --- the county response has not impressed. In that sense it's actually great that the encampment is in such a prominent location. The county can't keep playing their inhumane game of whack-a-mole. They have to actually do something.

The SMART financing situation is certainly a mess, but I don't think that it's reasonable to expect revenue neutrality from a public transit agency. I think it's reasonable for it to see a public subsidy proportionate with automobile infrastructure. However, I am personally very frustrated about the gaps in the bike path.

I'm mostly inclined to blame the situation on the ridiculous way we fund transit development in this country. Everything is funded from a mix of sources --- local, state, and federal --- and the federal funds are often "matching" funds. So SMART has to carefully break projects into bits to match the available funds and grant criteria. It's ridiculously inefficient. But of course, this complaint isn't really actionable given the political gridlock at the national level.

Thank you for being an informed and thoughtful presence in this thread!

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#455

Post by Daegalus » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:53 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #444

Daegalus wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll chime in and say that I just moved from California to Washington in September of last year. While its not a huge change, its enough to make a difference. Factors on why I did it: - Housing costs #1. I got into a rent controlled 2 bedroom 1100 sqft duplex unit. It was ok, but the landlord sucked and the place was very unmaintained, and i was paying $2800 a month. No yard, no garage, tons of homeless around diggin…

> Washington has no State tax Surely you mean income tax. Oregon is the state that lacks sales tax and makes up for it with an income tax. Also, I'm not sure why your grocery bill would go down compared to California. Moving from LA to Bellevue, I noticed groceries cost more up here. Both states don't apply sales tax to groceries, at least. It also costs a bit more to eat out here vs. LA, at least at the low end. Pro…

Eating out compared to the bay area is cheaper, but not by a lot, i say about $10-15 for similar quality food and service. For a similar place in California that I pay $75 plus tip and tax and all that, i pay about $65 here in washington. Not cheap, but cheaper bit a little.

Groceries were very expensive for me, and I tried to shop smart with Trader Joe's and Luckys (cheaper than Safeway/Sprouts/Whole foods). I would go to others for small things, but majority shopping there.

Here I live near a Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Safeway, and a local chain call Metropolitan Market, which is like Whole foods 1000x better, but also very expensie.

My grocery budget is the same, but i spend less. For a $150 in groceries in California, I am paying about $110ish for the same things.

So maybe its a Bay Area thing, but I am just paying less somehow.

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#456

Post by inferiorhuman » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #233

harimau777 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, then I think it would be reasonable to criticize them. Although, it still seems to me that it wouldn't hurt to put something in the law that specifically says that they won't build giant tower blocks.

The more you read about this stuff, you realize that there's some real ugliness there - now and in the past. Maybe not everyone, but it goes well beyond the original intent of zoning to keep housing away from factories and tanneries and such. https://www.sightline.org/2018/05/25/a-century-of-exclusion-... Of course, in places like San Francisco and Portland, people are mostly smart enough to not "say the quiet part o…

Of course, in places like San Francisco and Portland, people are mostly smart enough to not "say the quiet part out loud", so they come up with other excuses.

No we fucking said the quiet part out loud quite proudly in San Francisco. Take a look at the covenants in the Forest Hill neighborhood. It's still fairly bad as those folks recently successfully fought an attempt at building a low income retirement home.

And we certainly weren't that offended by the Chinese Exclusion Act.

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#457

Post by intopieces » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

ericfrenkiel wrote: post #414

bsder wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, yeah. Reality does bear out your theory. The extremes have been muted on both sides. Yes, if your views are at the extremes, you have less voice. That's a FEATURE , not a bug. And I feel no sympathy for you.

I would say it’s your own bias which is informing your opinion. California has only gotten more “progressive” with each election. If that makes you happy, I hope you understand that it’s “progressive” policy which has caused crime to explode, housing prices to rise, and people to leave the state.

> hope you understand that it’s “progressive” policy which has caused crime to explode

Crime has not exploded in California. California’s violent crime rate rose in 2017—but it remains historically low. The statewide property crime rate decreased in 2017. Crime rates vary dramatically by region and category. Violent crime increased in a majority of counties but property crime decreased in most counties. [0]

[0]https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#458

Post by mghfreud » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #343

Spooky23 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really true. Market values are based on total cost of ownership, and higher taxes reduce the value or value growth. Your taxes go up, but so does your debt service. I live in a secondary market of a very high tax state (NY). My effective property tax rate is about 1.8%, almost double what you see in NYC. But... my housing value is much lower. My home in NYC would be well over $1.5M, and is a fraction of th…

Farmers pay a different kind of tax. If people 13 is repealed, older people will have to move because they can’t pay their taxes on their fixed retirement incomes. NY is not CA. We are a different market.

You are assuming that property prices will stay the same. If prop13 is repealed, I do not think that will be the case.

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#459

Post by souprock » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

nmfisher wrote: post #401

imroot wrote: post #396

Florida's upsides: No Sales Tax. If you're not looking for waterfront, housing is super affordable. Amazing place if you're single. Florida's Downsides: Homeless are more aggressive than in SF. Florida Man. Frequently 10% sales tax in most places due to lack of income tax. Higher property taxes if you're in a really progressive area. You're swapping out earthquakes for hurricanes. A lot of "Keeping up with the Jones'…

I'm still trying to understand how it all works in the USA, so please bear with me. What do you mean by "No Sales Tax", then go on to say "Frequently 10% sales tax"?

Clearly that is wrong. There is no income tax.

The sales tax is 6% to the state, and counties can increase it for their own purposes, up to a maximum of 8%. The average is 6.65%. At certain times in summer, school supplies and hurricane supplies are 0%. Grocery items are 0%.

Re: Goodbye, New York, California and Illinois – Hello where?

#460

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 3:01 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #52

glofish wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that if you are 10 ft above water you'll be fine in Florida even when areas under 10ft flood? I really doubt that. It is not about actually losing your home, it is about quality of life, the main reason for moving there in the first place. There will be a big cost of any flooding, borne by all Floridians

Yes, and Florida real estate market fundamentals as well as the mortgage bond market and property insurance support my thesis. I specifically paid for sea level rise models before buying Florida real estate, and will likely sell before I die and sea level rise has meaningfully occurred. I-4 and I-75 will be untouched, and other infra is already designed around the Florida environment (hurricanes, high water table). S…

> Due to Florida’s population, federal funds are likely to be requested and paid out to mitigate

It’s Florida’s population and the fact that it’s a swing state. We really need to get rid of the electoral college. I love how the same voters in Florida that vote for candidates that bail out Florida will vote against any measure to provide broad subsidies like universal healthcare or education.

Of course, it just so happens many Florida voters are over 65 and done with education and already have taxpayer funded healthcare (Medicare), and get nice taxpayer subsidies on their flood zone homes (NFIP). But why extend that courtesy to the rest of the country.