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US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

peoplespolicyproject.org

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Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#451

Post by vk23 »

swebs wrote: post #429
antientropic wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's taking about external migration (refugees and illegal immigrants), not internal migration under the EU's freedom of movement. Of course, the latter was a major factor in the Brexit referendum, so I wouldn't say it's not a major problem for the EU...

What's even the point of the distinction if the EU is not adequately restricting immigration from those other countries? The point remains the same: people from poor countries are mass migrating to rich countries with the most social programs. This is a major problem for the EU.

The point of distinction is that EU internal immigration and the refugee situation are entirely different things. Refugees leave there home countries because of war and terror. Members of the UN are obligated [1] to give shelter to those people. Inside the EU there is indeed some welfare migration. This is however not only driven by social systems but also by available jobs.

[1] https://www.unhcr.org/1951-refugee-convention.html

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#452

Post by shireboy »

This article makes some good points up until the end. It criticizes private sector waste without evaluating waste in the public sector. I see how the taxpayer impact could possibly* be a wash, and do see problems in the private sector for sure. But my experiences with just about any US federal system does not cause me to see them as a bastion of efficiency. Without a profit incentive or really any incentive beyond occasional bad press, and with strict salary and firing controls they do not innovate or improve. Look at the VA for an example. Horror stories do exist for British and Canadian systems as well as others I’m sure.

* This article also ignores the fact that many of the countries listed also still have private insurance supplementals. Those may need to be added for a fair comparison.

In the end I don’t have good solution, but think the traditional arguments in both directions are generally hyperbolic and over simplified. Unless data shows conclusively otherwise, I lean toward free market solutions.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#453

Post by dsfyu404ed »

exodus_de wrote: post #321
maxxxxx wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's basically like this: If you're gonna be poor, go to Germany. Everyone else will pay for you. If you're going to earn well, leave Germany, otherwise you're going to be paying for everyone else." You should add this to your algorithm for location choice: If you get a serious health problem and want to become poor, come to the US.

> You should add this to your algorithm for location choice: If you get a serious health problem and want to become poor, come to the US. If you already have a serious health problem, you'll be hard pressed to find any country to take you and just take care of it pro-bono, if you're uninsured. German public insurance only covers the bare minimum. I know enough people who are poor because of serious health issues. Sur…

>Don't get an insurance that is capped at a low number, otherwise you will go bankrupt if shit hits the fan.

But shit will not hit the fan for the overwhelming majority of people. There's no good reason for someone in their 20s (or 30s) with, no dependents, no history of medical problems and doesn't partake in a dangerous lifestyle to load up on coverage. Loading up on coverage in that situation might make you feel warm and fuzzy. It might win you internet points. It is not financially sound.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#454

Post by jimbokun »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #275
jimbokun wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors? Seems to be a huge reluctance for anyone in politics to place the blame on them. But I'm pretty sure they make far more in the US than anywhere else in the world.

> But I'm pretty sure they make far more in the US than anywhere else in the world. Yea, but the opportunity cost of getting there is huge. At graduation, most doctors are in the ballpark of $1MM behind where they'd be if they went straight into a professional career. Also, doctor's salaries only account for 8% to 20% of total healthcare costs.

"At graduation, most doctors are in the ballpark of $1MM behind where they'd be if they went straight into a professional career."

So the two great failures of the American economic system, education and health care, reinforcing each other to make the situation even worse.

"Also, doctor's salaries only account for 8% to 20% of total healthcare costs."

Where does the rest go?

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#455

Post by zrail »

petronio wrote: post #362
ben_w wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$300 [1] is more than I’ve spent on (non-dental) helthcare, in total, over my entire life. That includes one count of general anaesthetic and emergency surgery because of testicular torsion which happened while I wasn’t registered with any local doctor, one burned arm, one being knocked unconscious by a trampoline, and one being hit by a car. [1] “after premiums” is roughly the same as “after taxes”, right?

I left the US recently with a few thousand in an HSA (a pre-tax account designated for healthcare expenses). I have no idea how I'm going to get that out of there now.

You can keep it there and withdraw it after 65 penalty free (have to pay taxes like a traditional IRA) or you can pull it out now and pay taxes plus a 10% penalty.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#456

Post by dsfyu404ed »

throwaway284721 wrote: post #106
rhacker wrote: post #87

Like to bring this up when we talk taxes: I think it's totally crazy that we give the feds 25% or more and our states soo soo sooooo much less. I think it should be the other way around: 5% for the feds, and maybe 20% to the states. The reason is that our cities are filled with bums, and have absolutely no money to either give them jobs or make new programs. The feds don't give a shit and are busy making missiles or…

The reason for this is that if one state has better social programs then another and higher taxes the poorest are going to move there, and the high earners are going to move away.

>and the high earners are going to move away.

Expand your timeline.

Those high earners will screw up the economy of their destination state accidentally gutting the lower middle class, institute social programs to deal with the all the problems this creates, realized they just created the same dystopia they fled and move again.

It's like a perverse form of rolling upgrades.

You can see this process in action in places like CO and the PNW states which are starting to flip from "rich people move here" to "poor people move here". TX will probably start flipping soon.

Major urban areas with lots of job opportunity seem vacuum up the wealthy regardless of the state wide trend (no matter how bad NY state gets upper middle class people in search of a lucrative career will be moving to NYC). I'm not sure how that plays into things.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#457

Post by vonmoltke »

maxxxxx wrote: post #80
vonmoltke wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US you can happy if your cost for seeing a doctor is less than 4 digits. My wife and I have never paid four figures for a doctor visit, despite having two surgeries (one oral), a calf strain, and a dislocated shoulder (with ER visit) between us. The state of medical care in the US is bad enough as it is; you don't need to make up hyperbolic bullshit to make it seem worse.

I fell down the stairs and had a muscle spasm in my back. Had to go an ER. I had insurance that was considered good and it still cost me $350 for 10 minutes with the doctor and a bottle of muscle relaxers.

$359 is an order of magnitude less than four figures.

It's also about what we paid for my wife's shoulder. Which, like I said, is bad enough on its own.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#458

Post by vonmoltke »

jdmichal wrote: post #93
vonmoltke wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US you can happy if your cost for seeing a doctor is less than 4 digits. My wife and I have never paid four figures for a doctor visit, despite having two surgeries (one oral), a calf strain, and a dislocated shoulder (with ER visit) between us. The state of medical care in the US is bad enough as it is; you don't need to make up hyperbolic bullshit to make it seem worse.

You walked away from multiple ER visits including surgeries for less than four digits out of pocket? Maybe consider that your experience is the exceptional, not the people you call hyperbolic. My son had a laceration glued together (dermabond in lieu of one or two stitches) and that was either close to or slightly over four digits after totaling the hospital bill and doctor bill, both in network.

One ER visit. The surgeries we're both planned, and I went to an urgent care for triage of my strain, then to a regular orthopedist.

> Maybe consider that your experience is the exceptional, not the people you call hyperbolic.

I'm not saying I'm typical. I'm saying that four-figure Mexican bills aren't. If they were, then I'm an extreme outlier, which I don't accept.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#459

Post by vonmoltke »

Spooky23 wrote: post #305
vonmoltke wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US you can happy if your cost for seeing a doctor is less than 4 digits. My wife and I have never paid four figures for a doctor visit, despite having two surgeries (one oral), a calf strain, and a dislocated shoulder (with ER visit) between us. The state of medical care in the US is bad enough as it is; you don't need to make up hyperbolic bullshit to make it seem worse.

It happens with high deductible plans. When I had back surgery I was with a public employer PPO. Total out of pocket was like $300 for about $500k of procedures. Half the people in my recovery PT were selling cars and emptying 401ks to make the mortgage.

> It happens with high deductible plans.

I never said it doesn't happen, which seems to be the strawman most people are responding to. However, there is a huge gap between "it happens" and

> happy if your cost for seeing a doctor is less than 4 digits

which I indicates this is common and typical.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#460

Post by hazmazlaz »

abstractbarista wrote: post #449
Someone1234 wrote: post #19

I moved to the US from a country with socialised medicine. When you include premiums then taxes in both were roughly similar if not a little higher in the US (ignoring cost of living differences). But even that doesn't include the real sting on the tail of US medicine. You pay a fairly high health insurance premium, but if you actually need health services you then pay again through the nose even with insurance "disc…

You don't go to ER for a high fever.

High fevers in infants can be quite serious, even fatal, so yes you do go to the ER for a high fever in that case.
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