Live data from Hacker News

Coders Automating Their Own Job

theatlantic.com

451–460 of 499 posts

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#451

You know how sometimes you love an article so much that you are annoyed you didn't write it? This does a better job than I could have of tieing together a dozen threads of conversation that I've had with various friends for years. I actually believe that there's a culture war implied in this debate; the question of who deserves to reap the gains of automation is more than just philosophy or ethics. The question "is t…

With the way things are going, I’m not sure learning a little bit of programming will help. Digitization has really begun rolling with RPA, because we now automate system processes for systems with no apis and no direct data manipulation. But even though RPA is mostly screengrapping and macros, we’ve found it impossible to teach to people who aren’t developers. Similar with better BI tools it’s become possible for sq…

As a disclaimer, my name is George (https://george.nychis.com) and I helped found a software automation company based out of Boston, MA that is "related" to this space called Soroco (https://www.soroco.com). Our focus is around solving the kinds of problems you talk about. Building automation to replace repetitive and deterministic work across software systems in the enterprise.

As you have learned, RPA is mostly screen scraping, macros, and as another person referred to it below "Rube Goldberg machines" that break when UIs change. For all of these reasons above (the need for automation and the limitations of RPA), we started Soroco. Like you said (and we agree) you can't build serious automation without real development.

We take a fundamentally different approach which is to build a platform/SDK for automation that provides a significant amount of reliability on top of a number of unreliable automation layers. There is no other way to automate Windows applications or Java applications than through either A) Screen scraping, or B) Their accessibility layers (e.g., Windows UIA). The problem is that BOTH are extremely unreliable. For web, that equivalent is Selenium (at least as the primary layer).

As another commenter mentioned below, a "watered down version of Selenium" is exactly what is NOT needed -- nor are Windows UIA or other accessibility layers great. They are all extremely unreliable. When something like Selenium fails to find an element, what do you do? Halt your business critical process?

All of these frameworks were never built to handle business critical processes, they were mainly built for application testing. The RPA industry has basically tried to leverage them and pretend they are enterprise ready by hiding them behind flow chart builders. They are NOT enterprise ready.

To draw an analogy, it's like having the Internet and IP, which do NOT provide or guarantee reliability. You need the equivalent of TCP and reliability layers.

At Soroco, we have dealt with all of this and have put a tremendous amount of effort into building reliability layers on these unreliable systems, along with security, scalability, and machine learning. We construct automation systems using a full programming language (Python) and have built flow control layers and reliability on top of it. Sort of like an automation SDK for Python with a full IDE. We have lots of supporting microservices for storing credentials securely, storing information scalably, and deploying. We've even open sourced how we encrypt Python (https://blog.soroco.com/)

What does "cognitive" mean in this field? At Soroco, we don't pretend automation systems can "self heal" or "self construct" -- that's just silly. For Soroco, cognitive means that if you had your automation system do the same thing over and over (e.g., during User Acceptance Testing)... what can it learn about the distribution of inputs or outputs to flag anomalous behavior? We also apply Machine Learning and Computer Vision to specific use cases to make them achieve what is not possible through a laundry list of conditionals. For example, ML/NLP to classify intents of text and to do things like binary or multi-class classification.

There's a lot of noise in the RPA space. I'd be happy to share more with you if you want to reach out directly to me: george@soroco.com or gnychis@gmail.com

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#452
post #361
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly screen scraping / macros. A lot of what I see is over marketed woo (“cognitive RPA”), but it’s basically a watered down version of selenium that (in theory) a programming novice could use to automate tasks. The tricky part is that there is a finesse involved to make it reliable and the exercise becomes more process improvement than programming. Most people struggle with this and you end up with a 2000 line-of-…

Following up on this is how heavy these things are marketed. We’ve spent around $1MM in the last two years on Automation Anywhere and around $2MM hiring consultants to implement it. Part of it is because our IT department is underfund and dysfunctional and RPA is the only “controllable” way to improve processes (in execution it’s not) and part of it is because our management have drank the cool aide that automation a…

Please see my response! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18133835

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#454
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not everyone on HN is a developer, it does tend to skew that way so I don't feel guilty pointing out how frustrating it is to measure the output of a top programmer. Often, a mature codebase shrinks as code quality improves. This drives the efficiency wonks absolutely bonkers.

>This drives the efficiency wonks absolutely bonkers. what do you mean by that?

I think they're referring to the problem of measuring programmer output (and thus, measuring programmer efficiency). And how the output of that work (lines of code) can actually be reduced, but still considered productive.

I'm not putting this very well.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#455
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looking at the history of religious thought in the US, it's not the Protestant work ethic per se, but in large part the "prosperity gospel" or prosperity theology [1] -- this belief that God will reward the right kind of Christians with material wealth. > Except in case of disaster of course, and then maybe some kind of metaphysical excuses might come into play! there's a particularly distressing variation of this…

" upon hearing news that a terrible disaster has stricken a distant country, killing tens of thousands, concludes that those victims must necessarily have deserved such a fate " This happens, but it's barely a thing. I've never seen or heard of such a thing in real life, it's something you only hear about on CNN. Services in mainline Churches don't really ever go into this kind of thing, the congregation would find i…

Yeah, I'm not arguing that it's a common reaction

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works just as well the other way around. Every time managers are mentioned at HN, some programmer is sure they can do a better job than their/most/all managers.

That's because programmers can do management. It's not unusual to see engineers get tracked into management. I have certainly never seen it go the other way (partially because managers usually make more than engineers I'm sure.)

Yeah, and most of the time (at least at places I've worked) the managers are former coders. So arguing that all managers are stupid just seems silly to me.

Also, yes - anybody can do management, and anybody can do coding. Learning to do either effectively is a skill.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#457
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to suggest this from my experience. I hate to burst GP's bubble, but the attitude and environment at his next job probably won't be any better in regard to "best practices." It's extremely difficult to gauge how your attitude toward development compares with a prospective team's after an hour of chatting. I became a manager last year and quickly discovered that changing others' behavior and habits is next…

As a non-developer, how can I hire someone (or a team) like OP that focuses on automating menial stuff and focuses on the most important? Does a development agency that focuses on this model exist? Of course they should be paid more per hour (or other unit) than your average, less optimized agency, but the sum total should be less than hiring inefficient agencies. (P.S. I understand the best developers probably don't…

You don't pay by the hour, you pay for the job...

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#458
I don't believe that a salaried employee is duty-bound to work any more hours in a week than is required to accomplish their given assignments. Nor do I believe that the tools they create themselves to do that job more effectively should automatically become the property of the employer.

The reason people do not disclose the automation of their own jobs is because they do not believe they can monetize their cleverness more effectively than by keeping secret their shortcuts. They sincerely believe the company will fire them and pay nothing for their automation tools.

It is ultimately a "truth to power" phenomenon. If you have the power to plunge me into a lifestyle of deprivation and poverty, I will avoid giving you any reason for doing so. If you have the power to take some of my profits for yourself, I will seek to avoid informing you that is possible.

The philosophy of "Office Space" applies. It's a question of motivation. If I bust my ass so the boss makes more money, I don't see another dime, so I just do the minimum amount to not get fired. And we also have to know that the minimum amount of flair is not the actual minimum amount we can wear.

I'm sure many of us have seen extra effort go completely unrewarded, or even get punished. That experience takes a toll. Not one of us can trust our employer to do the right thing all the time--even for those of us that are founders! So we preemptively choose for them, and sometimes do the thing that is right only for us. If more companies were capable of more accurately assessing the value of software automation, we wouldn't have to think twice--we'd take the bonus equivalent to several years salary, and start automating something else.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. By the time you get hired and you are appointed a set of things to automate, it's usually followed by a long line of deliberation and resource management and prioritizing that's determined on the higher up. There is a thing called "process debt", in the same way as technical debt, that some things are done manually. This can be mundane routine work, that might be up to 80% easy to automate, but allows for oversig…

> "I'll see something that you haven't noticed in years!" There's this saying in my country, roughly translated to "Guest for a second, sees a mile far" (sorry... it even rhymes and everything in Polish...) Being immersed in something for a long time has a good chance of limiting your perspective to that thing only. While it's true that perhaps 90% of newcomers and their ideas simply miss the intricacies of the curre…

I've always loved this idea, and have found it to be very true in all aspects - always just known it as "tunnel vision".

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#460

The article is a red herring. They're asking the question "Is it immoral to fire someone for automating their job?", when the question should be "Why aren't more companies encouraging their employees to automate their job?" Yes, a person can automate their job until they're not doing anything, and yes, a company can punish an employee for sitting idle. But the latter is inherently stupid. Automation both achieves the…

Now look at it from the employees perspective; None of these cases result in the person who did the automation from gaining additional compensation and half of them result in them loosing their job.

Incorrect.

The first 2, they lose the job.

The last 2, they lose the time-freedom.

In all instances, is there no good reason to tell of automation.

Post reply on HN