Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#451

Post by darawk » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #343

mikybee93 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest. We only do things to make ourselves feel good, or make ourselves look better. I think that companies have many paths towards self preservation, and that choosing the paths that lead to a better world deserve praise regardless of motive.

I disagree there, because all throughout history are examples of genuine heroes who stood to benefit not at all from their actions. Vince Coleman[0] comes to mind. Humans can be motivated by many things, profit and looking good included. I'm vaguely aware of a philosophical branch that postulates that all actions are selfish, but that ain't science and so I disagree. People will sacrifice their pyramid of needs towar…

It doesn't matter whether they're doing it for a 'greater good' or not. You should praise them anyway. They took steps to create the world that you want. It doesn't matter why they did it.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#452

Post by onemoresoop » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #422

pkulak wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, does the top comment always have to be cynical? This is exactly what everyone wanted Amazon to do. Maybe it's time to suck it up and give praise where praise is due? There are also benefits to paying more salary than your competitors (no hiring shortages, best employees, low turnover, etc), so I'm not going to blindly accept that it's now in Amazon's interest to drag the rest of the industry along with them. But…

I think we should praise this move by Amazon, but also realize they're probably the world leader in warehouse robotics. If they raise wages, and push for wage increases now, there is a short term effect of reduced profits for Amazon, but it also puts pressure on raising costs for competitors while Amazon is on a path to being much better insulated from those costs. It also gives them better community relations basis…

Perhaps they raised minimum wages with the future goal to lay off staff that can be "robotized". After that the remaining workers would certainly have a higher load of dealing with the robots and would most likely not be willing to work for less than $15/h. This can also can earn amazon a good guy reputation so that their future move can be justified. I hope i'm wrong but my instinct tells me that Amazon will not loose a cent on this move.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#453

Post by lgeorget » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #374

lgeorget wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $15 an hour will push a lot of people out of being employable. On the other hand, isn't it illogical in a free market economy that wages do not increase at a rate at least equal to the inflation? How do you keep the economy running if people have less and less purchase power as time goes by? (These are genuine questions, I'm not an economist at all.)

It's not illogical at all. Wages and inflation are not dependent on each other. Inflation means money supply is growing faster than productivity, but it doesn't mean wage-earners are getting that extra money. Banks and capitalists might be.

Uh... yes. Let's replace "illogical" by "irrational" in my first question, then. :-)

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#454

Post by VLM » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

Klathmon wrote: post #178

zacharytelschow wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> turning your employees into welfare-dependent wage-slaves I wasn't aware staying with a particular employer was compulsory.

Would you be able to give up your paycheck, knowing that if you don't have another by next week you would literally be homeless? With no savings, no healthcare, no "fallback", no help, nothing. Sit down, and really decide if you would be able to quit your fulltime job that is giving you about $100 a week after taxes, and have to decide how to make that $100 last paycheck last until you find another job? Maybe you'll…

"no healthcare"

How does that work, exactly? To produce this post I googled up the actual data for the state I live in, civilized area far from the coasts (near Chicago but not too close thankfully).

Hopefully this isn't too docs droppy but where I live any single adult making $1011.67 or less per month, or any pregnant woman or any under 18 year homeless kid making $3035.01 or less per month qualifies for the totally free medicaid. Its not like they cut you off at a penny over, there's a sliding scale.

Its actually much more complicated and for my 4 person household, we would get medical coverage totally for free if we make less than $2091.67 per month and my kids are completely free until we make more than $6275.01 per month, and if my wife got pregnant again she'd also be covered to the $6275 per month limit.

So... what kind of unemployment bennies do you guys get such that an unemployed soon to be homeless dude is making that much money? Actually, if you have that much income while you're unemployed (trust fund baby or whatever) how can you be homeless without a very expensive drug addiction or similar problem, if the average single apartment rent is about $700 around here?

I'm very sad to say that medicaid coverage in my state is not very good, but vastly better than my current corporate insurer; the copays and deductibles are so insane I'm considering signing up for medicaid and not working too hard on contract work next year. My kids would get better medical care, I'd get more time off, I have enough investments that I already make too much money for completely free medicaid without working at all...

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#455

Post by onemoresoop » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

Perhaps they raised minimum wages with the future goal to lay off staff that can be "robotized". After that the remaining workers would certainly have a HIGHER WORKLOAD of dealing with the robots and would most likely not be willing to work for less than $15/h. This can also can earn amazon a good guy reputation so that their future move can be justified. I hope i'm wrong but my instinct tells me that Amazon will not loose a cent on this move.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#456

Post by bufferoverflow » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #252

bufferoverflow wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "living wage". Please be specific, no vague dancing around.

Living wage: a wage sufficiently high that after paying taxes there is still enough left over for small family or individual to live off when all normal expenses are accounted for based on a workweek no longer than 40 hours in total. That works out to $2400 gross per month (so before taxes) which if you can't recoup it from the work input says more about the company you are working for and their inability to capture…

That definition is VERY vague. I asked you to be specific. How many people? What does "live off" include SPECIFICALLY? What are "normal expenses"?

I'm quite certain one can survive on zero dollars, so I assume you're talking about something else. But I don't get what.

The $2400 number is completely made up, it's not even geography-specific. It's a lot in Indiana suburbs and it's barely anything in SF.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#457

Post by ddingus » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

This helps in the human struggle a majority of Americans are experiencing right now.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#458

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #67

czep wrote: post #47

Opponents of the minimum wage argue that it reduces employment by creating an artificial floor on wages, that jobs are lost because employers can't afford to pay the minimum. But if you can't pay the minimum, then you didn't really have a job to offer in the first place! By extension of this logic, employers could argue that they are losing jobs because they can only afford to pay someone who will work 12 hours a day…

There is no definition of "minimum", "basic living", "safe conditions", "fair hours" etc. Fair hours used to be 10 hours a day 6 days / week. Living used to be able to survive a famine. Safe conditions used to be hunting for animals. All it matters is people interacting voluntarily, that's the only argument against minimum wage. But it is disingenuous to suggest that just because there are people who would take such…

The voluntary interaction argument falls apart in the presence of a labor monopsony.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#459

Post by HarryHirsch » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #286

L_Rahman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the topic in question is how one of the most powerful companies on Earth chooses to use its power we should strive to always be this cynical. Skepticism of concentrated power is the ur-American political belief. We seem to have forgotten that lately.

If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?

Companies, like countries, don't have feelings. Back in school my history teacher was very insistent on that fact, if you said something like "country xy was provoked to enter the war" he'd really tear into you. He taught us to spot propaganda and the motivations of individuals.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#460

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

rpedela wrote: post #438

meko wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.

The modern world was built by corporations. Access to clean water, cheap and healthy food, energy, infrastructure. Yes taxes fund a lot of it but it is corporations that largely do the work at least in the US. Being for-profit is a good thing on the whole because that enables the corporation to continue solving problems for more people. Obviously there is a dark side too. The pursuit of profit left uncheck leads to h…

> Access to clean water, cheap and healthy food, energy, infrastructure.

Clean water access? Paid for my government. Cheap and healthy food? Government subsidies. Energy? Government funds majority of research. Infrastructure was mostly inlaid by Government implemented New Deal/other job creation programs.

Corporations had little to no involvement in 'doing the work' here. Access to cheap/healthy food was before corporations were the majority of agriculture due to government subsidy. Energy is largely built on research which is largely funded by the government. The majority of interstate groundwork as it's been laid out today was started by the government's roadbuilding job-creation programs.

While large legal entities may have their benefits, one shouldn't subscribe undue merit to them in the pursuit of attempting to dissuade undue chagrin.