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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#451

Post by orblivion »

nautilus12 wrote: post #404
dmode wrote: post #176

Why would a "white male conservative" sue a corporation when the conservative platform believes that in a free market corporations should be allowed to discriminate as they please ? I have heard Ron Paul (ok, a libertarian) state numerous times how he doesn't support civil rights, because the public will stop visiting those businesses who engage in discriminatory behavior. Shouldn't James Damore just let the free mar…

Because fighting fire with fire seems to be the only tactic successful in these contexts. Its about proving the hypocrisy of practicing discrimination against those you self deem (without any due process) to be discriminatory. Discrimination, like hate only begets more discrimination. As far as the second point, the free markets no longer operate that way, marketing has emerged as a white washing effect for any ill a…

The problem is that you're shooting fire at Google, who isn't the one who originated the lawsuits or threats of lawsuits that lead to Google's policies. If anything they're victims of the previous lawsuits. This may achieve the desired effect of getting them to lobby to get laws changed so that these lawsuits won't be as effective, but it's a morally muddy game.

I'm a libertarian who supports Damore in sprirt, but I don't love this lawsuit for the reasons given in the grandparent post.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#452

Post by MollyR »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #412
threeseed wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain to me where Google asks when you are hired whether you are white, male or conservative. I have worked for a dozen Fortune 500 sized companies now and not once has it ever come up. He wasn't fired for any of those aspects anyway. He was fired because he chose to act in an unprofessional manner.

Regardless of our personal feelings about the matter, the sad fact is, it might be as simple as the lawyers finding female Googlers who have public statements remotely anti-male who were not fired. I am not a lawyer but that, while trivial, might be enough for a court to rule against Google.

That and also There was also google managers talking about having personal blacklists on twitter.

It's why I think this google will settle with Damore for a very high amount, because discovery will not be good for them.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#453

Post by BinaryIdiot »

ironjunkie wrote: post #171

After reading the memo and after reading most of the comments here that claim that users also read the memo makes me very afraid on the state of educated people in America. I cannot believe that most of you still go with the media narrative that Damore claimed "women are worse than man at engineering" while this is a very obvious misrepresentation of what he wrote in order to fill a narrative. This is all part of a p…

What? He actually does say that...

> I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.

[...]

> This is all part of a politically driven agenda that destroys everyone trying to question the unique, politically-correct acceptable way of thinking.

This is nonsensical. He wrote bullshit, he caused a problem at his office of employment, he was fired. End of discussion. If you end up pissing off most of your co-workers it leads to a hostile environment so you remove the fewest amount of people to fix it. It doesn't even matter if what he wrote is or isn't correct at that point.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#454

Post by ravar »

logfromblammo wrote: post #275
ebbv wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I do see the difference; the second sentence is spelling out plainly the bigotry he's trying to cloak in faux intellectualism. It's always the same kind of crap from bigots. "Women MIGHT be less capable of engineering." "Black people MIGHT be more prone to crime." "Gay people MIGHT be more likely to be pedophiles." and it's always based in bigotry, not in science or evidence.

Neurology and psychology studies have shown differences in the way men and women think. For example, when navigating, men tend to use dead reckoning, while women tend to prefer landmarks. Similar differences may exist with respect to the modes of thinking useful for engineering. With that in mind, consider that our current modal computer architecture and programming paradigms were designed and implemented by men. The…

Your argument sounds nice, but does not offer sufficient proof for your rather strong statement "so the natural biological differences are irrelevant". This is a claim which could be scientifically tested. For example researchers could develop two rudimentary tool chains, one for women and one for men. Then they could investigate if in fact they can generate any statistical difference in participation.

It would actually be a rather interesting theory to test, and I would hope someone does test the theory. However your claim is not currently known to be true, rather just a promising theory.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#455

Post by ryguytilidie »

hsod wrote: post #437
ryguytilidie wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, Joe Rogan is considered a right wing youtuber? I listen to his show all the time and I'm a pretty big liberal and while he sometimes does the whole "everyone is sooooo PC now" thing, he also talks negatively about Trump, the GOP and right wing politics constantly. I also listened to the James Damore episode, and while I thought James did a good job of making his point and Joe did an AWESOME job of interviewing…

If you spend a lot of time railing on "SJWs", and comparatively little time advocating for an alternative path to a more egalitarian social order, I think you can be considered right wing. Supporting pot legalization doesn't erase that.

"If you spend a lot of time railing on "SJWs", and comparatively little time advocating for an alternative path to a more egalitarian social order"

I mean, if you want to debate, I'm happy to do so, but I'd prefer the debate be rooted in reality and not hyperbole.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#456

Post by orblivion »

ogre_magi wrote: post #200
dmode wrote: post #176

Why would a "white male conservative" sue a corporation when the conservative platform believes that in a free market corporations should be allowed to discriminate as they please ? I have heard Ron Paul (ok, a libertarian) state numerous times how he doesn't support civil rights, because the public will stop visiting those businesses who engage in discriminatory behavior. Shouldn't James Damore just let the free mar…

Damore wouldn't describe himself as conservative I think.

He sometimes describes himself as libertarian. But he's no radical.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#457

Post by 5ilv3r »

threeseed wrote: post #225
TheRealPomax wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem unfamiliar with the power of litigation. The case won't be about "him being fired", but about showing there is any pattern for bias in Google with respects to the three stated criteria. And if they can show that bias exists, then still without making this about him, specifically, the court can be asked to apply punitive measures against google (which their client "happens to benefit from, being part of the g…

Explain to me where Google asks when you are hired whether you are white, male or conservative. I have worked for a dozen Fortune 500 sized companies now and not once has it ever come up. He wasn't fired for any of those aspects anyway. He was fired because he chose to act in an unprofessional manner.

Ethnicity and gender are on their job application form.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#458

Post by dopamean »

ddlsmurf wrote: post #401
dopamean wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just "association" as you put it. r/the_donald was singing is his praises. They're a pretty toxic bunch and I've found that I have very little in common with many of them (mostly because I find their views to be ). So when they're the only people I see coming to someone's defense I assume that person said or did something pretty bad. Mike Cernovich is the same way. He's looking to push a narrative to further…

You give too much power to these toxic groups, I recommend just ignoring them completely. The alternative is basically giving them the ability to censor what you read, litmus or not, seems unwise. I know nothing of Cernovich sorry. It certainly served you poorly here. His infamous memo is the best, most scientifically literate proposal towards more diversity in IT, its portrayal is truly discouraging.

It didn't censor what I read though. I read the memo fully. I thought it wasn't particularly interesting. Then I saw who did. I'm not sure what you think I missed.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#459

Post by coldtea »

praestigiare wrote: post #375
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

>You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative.

If you just base it on what you see, yes. But if you're partial to top brass interviews and conversations about getting this or that person to pad diversity, and of talk about overlooking skills since "we need more X", then no (of course that would still be partial knowledge of the overall state of the market).

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#460

Post by alexanderstears »

vkou wrote: post #218
falcor84 wrote: post #13

Is there actually any US law against discrimination based on political stance?

No, but there are laws against employing someone who publishes (internally or otherwise) memoranda that creates a hostile working environment for a protected class. More specifically, had Google not fired him, they'd be getting sued by other employees. PS. Being told that "You are only here because you're a diversity hire, you can't actually do the work," is creating a hostile working environment.

It's interesting that it's hostile to say "you are only here because you're a diversity hire" but "you only got the job because you are a white male" isn't understood to be as hostile.

At some point, we're going to have to decide whether we're committed to equality among protected classes or not.

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