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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#451

Post by imron »

zorpner wrote: post #413
imron wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ISIS would want them to do it to the US government and a bunch of other sites. Today you're in luck because the guys with this power are on your side. What happens when they're not?

When ISIS or Nazis are in power, you will not have the right to free speech without being subjected to state violence, regardless of how you kowtow to them now. The paradox of tolerance applies directly to free speech.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be Nazis or ISIS in control. It just has to be people with a different ideological and moral framework from your own.

As an example, the CEO of Cloudfare stated the removal of Daily Stormer was an arbitrary decision made by him, because he "woke up in a bad mood and decided to kick them off the Internet" and as CEO he had the power to do so [0], so what happens if the CEO of a Cloudflare-like service is a staunch Christian and starts removing sites based on that?

Or as more realistic example, the Republicans control the house, the senate and the presidency.

They came quite close to having a super-majority in the Senate, and who knows what will happen in the 2018 mid-terms.

For many Republicans, things like abortion and LGBT rights are moral issues and if they get a super majority it's not unthinkable that they will push to remove or criminalize things that they are morally opposed to.

From the ACLU's post on why they are defending Milo Yiannopoulos [1]

"But the sad reality is that many people think that speech about sexuality, gender identity, or abortion is over the line as well. They’ll say that abortion is murder, civil rights advocates are criminals, or LGBT advocates are trying to recruit children into deviant and perverse lifestyles. If First Amendment protections are eroded at any level, it's not hard to imagine the government successfully pushing one or more of those arguments in court. "

I know Cloudfare is a private company and so from a legal perspective this is not a freedom of speech issue, but beyond the law, freedom of speech as a general principle is something that needs to exist in the hearts and minds of those making the law, and actions that erode that, especially from entities that wield enormous power over communications infrastructure, set dangerous precedent.

0: http://gizmodo.com/cloudflare-ceo-on-terminating-service-to-...

1: https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/how-could-you-represe...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#452

Post by leereeves »

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #434
genon wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get what I'm saying - comparing two well-known instances from different parts of the political spectrum where businesses try and refuse custom for ideological reasons - why are you pretending I'm comparing gay people to neo-Nazis?

Because you choose to be a neo nazi, you don’t choose to be gay. I’m not talking about denying service. I’m saying one of them did not choose to be what they are.

It's not clear that people choose their beliefs - or anything else. That's essentially the free will debate, which is still unsettled.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#453

Post by im_down_w_otp »

Spivak wrote: post #412
vaishaksuresh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then. I get what you’re saying and agree with you, but please don’t compare gay people and neo-nazi. They’re not same or even similar.

Right, the distinction is that neo-Nazi's are bad -- hateful, intolerant, divisive, problematic or however you want to put it. I'm uncomfortable saying that it's okay to do these things to the bad guys, even when it's obvious, because in an alternate universe it might be obvious that gays marrying is hateful toward Christians and intolerant of their sacred rituals.

Nobody fought and won war---to the conclusion of unconditional surrender---against an army and ideology of the LGBT community.

Nazism didn't go through some kind of Martin Luther style academic and cultural reformation in the last 80 years. Neo-Nazis are the same as the original Nazis. They have the same ideology & the same ambitions. They're literally incompatible with Western liberalism & enlightenment.

Neo-Nazis are just late-stage Third Reich acolytes, sympathizers, and insurrectionists. They're still trying to fight a war that they lost to terms of unconditional surrender. It's frankly shocking that they're given the deference of being just yet another political voice in the diverse landscape of voices. They are not. Very, very few modern political movements were defeated explicitly at the tip of a spear instead of the stroke of a pen. Nazism is in scarce company in that regard.

There's no point at all to engage any of it as though Nazism is the same as normal political speech. Allowing for ideological recidivism and re-litigating WWII sort of defeats the purpose of having fought that war and conquered them to begin with.

It would make way, way more sense to consider them enemies of the state and deal with them as such.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#454

Post by slededit »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #26

I get the whole "companies can choose not to host whatever they want" argument, but in order to do anything on the internet, you have to interact with companies. If I want to run my own website, I need an IP address at the minimum, and ISPs are free to cut off my internet service if they don't like what I'm hosting. In a public setting, if people don't like what I'm saying, they can't force me to be quiet (generally)…

The root of the problem is really the botnets. If it weren't for the DDOS attacks anyone could put a server online cheaply and communicate with their relatively small and fringe audience. But because we are incapable of enforcing laws against DDOS attacks you need to be a big a player to stay online.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#455

Post by losteric »

zzzcpan wrote: post #218
tuna-piano wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

Cloudflare is pushing its pretend free speech PR too hard. But make no mistake, it's still just PR, no company like that actually cares about free speech.

That's a fallacy because "free speech" is not unlimited - every civilization recognizes its existence is the result of limiting specific freedoms in order to guarantee everyone other freedoms.

Germany, among others, outlaw this kind of content because they experienced the end result first-hand. Perhaps the US should learn from them.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#456

Post by drowaway »

tuna-piano wrote: post #77
r721 wrote: post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

Yeah, at least he should take down also the credit card fraud boards, they are doing real harm. Since the argument is gone, i see no reason not to do that.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#457

Post by edraferi »

vaishaksuresh wrote: post #434
genon wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get what I'm saying - comparing two well-known instances from different parts of the political spectrum where businesses try and refuse custom for ideological reasons - why are you pretending I'm comparing gay people to neo-Nazis?

Because you choose to be a neo nazi, you don’t choose to be gay. I’m not talking about denying service. I’m saying one of them did not choose to be what they are.

> Because you choose to be a neo nazi, you don’t choose to be gay.

I agree with you, but many people do not, making it a political statement. Things get very complicated as soon as you abandon the bright line test of "you must serve the whole public."

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#458

Post by matt4077 »

lightedman wrote: post #348

In return, CloudFlare's service provider immunity should be terminated. They've demonstrated that they do effectively control what happens with their networks and should not enjoy qualification for immunity.

What's the mechanism for this claim? Are you suggesting there was, previously, any uncertainty regarding Cloudflare's ability to (a) know which domains are hosted with them or (b) to look at those websites?

Because it seems as if they have always had the ability to "control what happens with their networks".

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#460

Post by gritzko »

tuna-piano wrote: post #77
r721 wrote: post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

First they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Nazi.
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