San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents • Hacker News Board

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#451

Post by thedufer » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:20 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #439

timr wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would have remained very reasonable, despite the rapid economic growth. This would have prevented exactly this problem where tech workers are forced to…

> Increasingly, the choice not to locate your company in SF is a sign of competitive intelligence. Sorry, but this is flawed logic. Tech, more than seemingly any other industry I can think of, has a winner-takes-all model of success. Given this, starting a tech company anywhere other than where the overwhelming majority of the most capable employees live is virtually suicide. And this seems to pan out in the data as…

Surely the fact that a huge portion of startups start in SF could account for the fact that a huge portion of winners came from SF? You're also biased because you're paying more attention to startups in SF - the Bay area doesn't even come up with half of the big startups, and yet you failed to name a single one from anywhere else.

A quick scan of Fortune's unicorn list* shows 12 out of the top 25 are from outside of California, and two of the Cali ones are LA, bringing SF down to 11 (after generously counting Palo Alto in SF, because I assume you meant the Bay Area). Without numbers on how many startups are started in various places, I'm not sure what these numbers mean, but it doesn't obviously favor your winner-takes-all argument.

* http://fortune.com/unicorns/

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#452

Post by batbomb » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:22 AM UTC

physcab wrote: post #184

Apocryphon wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems is the lack of city governments and wealthy homeowners here to think beyond just SF. The Bay Area as a whole, from San Francisco to Oakland to San Jose, should work together to solve the housing and infrastructural issues we have here. It's not even just SF that needs to build. The entire Bay needs to pitch in, from San Jose to Novato. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/zprpe/the_actual_o…

This is true. My sister is a civil engineer on the SMART train - supposed to have been light rail from Fishermans Wharf all the way to Santa Rosa. The Golden Gate Bridge actually has a railway line below it that hasn't been used. But the train will only go to Larkspur ferry because Marin disallowed it.

> The Golden Gate Bridge actually has a railway line below it that hasn't been used.

No it doesn't. You might have some memories crossed, but there's definitely no railway.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#453

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:22 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #439

timr wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would have remained very reasonable, despite the rapid economic growth. This would have prevented exactly this problem where tech workers are forced to…

> Increasingly, the choice not to locate your company in SF is a sign of competitive intelligence. Sorry, but this is flawed logic. Tech, more than seemingly any other industry I can think of, has a winner-takes-all model of success. Given this, starting a tech company anywhere other than where the overwhelming majority of the most capable employees live is virtually suicide. And this seems to pan out in the data as…

[deleted]

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#454

Post by carsongross » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:27 AM UTC

whack wrote: post #111

It's hard to overstate the impact this is going to have on San Francisco, long-term. As Technology becomes the most important industry in America, a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would…

Why in God's name would San Francisco want to become New York?

I am a fan of neither, but they are completely different cities.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#455

Post by nefitty » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:29 AM UTC

Falcon9 wrote: post #275

rconti wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't argue against that being the best thing Vegas has going for it.

Cheap housing, cheap decent food options, access to all-you-can-eat-entertainment, relative proximity to SoCal/beach all factor in as well. But the Summer is miserable (IMO) and the people here just don't give a crap about life, so it can be pretty draining to live in Vegas as well.

I'm in Vegas. A lot of people here are passionate about their community and their personal projects. I'm not sure what you're talking abou the "not giving a crap about life." Just browse our Meetup page: http://www.meetup.com/cities/us/nv/las_vegas/ If you missed those kinds of people then maybe there was a problem with the way you approached Vegas.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#456

Post by tayo42 » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:30 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #434

cylinder wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC is not that different. The only things open 24hrs are bodegas and diners, which serve shitty food. Even the Whole Foods in Union Square, the busiest in the nation, closes at 11pm, which is later than the grocery stores in suburban TX. I guess bars can stay open late.

As someone who routinely worked quite late in NYC, that's just not accurate. I routinely had good meals at 10pm or 11pm at night. Never once did I eat at a diner. Lots of restaurants stay open later in NYC, and then there are plenty of gastropubs serving great food even later.

Used to be out real late and always got food. Pizza at 4am for a dollar, chicken gyros from the halal carts, chinatown restaurants.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#457

Post by quicklyfrozen » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:30 AM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #357

whitenoice wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks but I find none of those unique to SF, you can get the same in other top cities. I don't know about Denver but in Boston/NY you have tons of good job opportunities, excellent engineering and scientific community with top firms/startups and excellent eng, business, and med schools. Close proximity to outdoors (New Hamshire, Maine). No doubt there are more startups/jobs in SF but at the same time it seems that i…

I don't know about Boston, but Maine is not in any sense close to nyc. I think the difference is distance. In sf, world class skiing is 3 hours away; the beach is 20 minutes in much of the city; great hiking is across the bridge in Marin or south along 1, well under an hour away. It's not a trip; enjoying the outdoors takes an afternoon. I have an acquaintance who works near the presidio and surfs over lunch. When I…

How many jobs if I'm getting close to 50? :-)

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#458

Post by thedufer » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:32 AM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #216

whack wrote: post #111

It's hard to overstate the impact this is going to have on San Francisco, long-term. As Technology becomes the most important industry in America, a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would…

That's implausible: San Francisco is overbuilt to the extent that green areas are sparse, though those which exist are decent, rather than distributed throughout the city. That contrasts in the extreme with the other cities you mentioned, and matters to many people.

SF has 1/4 of the population density of Manhattan, the city it is often compared to, and about 1/6 of the densest city in the world (Manila in the Philippines). I wonder where all those extra people are being put if SF has capped out?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#459

Post by kyllo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:33 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #450

kyllo wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point, parent commenter is saying that communication technology should enable you to build a successful tech company with a geographically distributed team.

Parent commenter claimed that "the choice not to locate your company in SF is a sign of competitive intelligence". I argued against that, and in my opinion the available data appears to back me up on this. Communication technology hasn't so far enabled, at least in the general case, geographically-distributed tech companies – otherwise we would be seeing an increasing trend of successful tech companies headquartered…

Yeah, my personal theory on this is that the short to medium term success of tech startups is mostly based on factors and advantages other than product quality and technical excellence.

Having a distributed tech team is not hard, but most startups aren't distributed because the VCs aren't distributed. They want face to face meetings.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#460

Post by quicklyfrozen » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:34 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #365

sjg007 wrote: post #362

I'm about ready to cry uncle. Maybe now tech companies will consider remote work. Everyone will be happier.

Careful what you wish for. If your job can be done from home, it can be done from India.

You can collaborate effectively with remote people a couple time zones away. India is much harder -- also much harder to periodically bring everyone together for a few days.