On asking job candidates to code • Hacker News Board

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#451

Post by ironchef » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:05 AM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #356

ironchef wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why not just bypass the bullshit challenges and just _have a conversation about code_?" Because talking and doing can be different? _Do_ they actually write test cases? Do they write documentation? Do they make output machine parseable? etc. I want to see what work product looks like even if the work product is simple. (which is also why the homework I assign is nothing ridiculous like 8 hours nor do I timebox it)

Talk about that stuff. People sometimes spend extra time polishing a code challenge than they do in their day-to-day. People can lie to you in code just like they can in conversation. Sure, you know that their ability to do it is there, but you still don't know that they will and you still don't know that if they didn't they could learn. You can get that information from having the right conversation. What testing to…

"You can't stare at somebody's code and know if you'll like working with them." Sure...and there's not mutual exclusion between the two. Looking at someone's work product is simply another set of data points. I'm not judging someone's fit for a position simply based on a code work product. Or a resume. Or one cultural fit question. I'm using them all to paint a picture and weighing the pieces to determine if I think this person will perform well under the complete circumstances (work/life balance, work required, what team they're on, etc.) Simply put, I've found several different kinds of work products have helped determine positive fit in the past for me.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#452

Post by mamoswined » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:10 AM UTC

MangezBien wrote: post #421

Interesting. I applied to DO about ten weeks ago. I had an initial phone screen, and they sent me a code challenge. I completed and turned in the challenge. Then I heard nothing for two weeks. I reached out to my contact there, and she got back to me a week later saying, "I've been waiting on feedback - sorry it's taking so long! I just pinged the manager again this morning." That was the last I heard from DO. I feel…

Yeah I ignore jobs that ask for these screens. I've spent a lot of time on them and then not heard anything.

When I'm adding to my own team I would rather talk to them about code than have them do these screens. It's more holistic and I get more of a sense of how they think. If I'm going to give them a code challenge like this I wait until after the phone screen so I don't waste people's time.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#453

Post by mamoswined » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:12 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #449

ClayFerguson wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What these companies have successfully done is weed out all the great devs who value their time very much. Those who are desperate for a job will spend the 8hrs it takes on these silly tests and make it thru the process. Good developers who can take their choice of jobs will just ignore these companies who think they are being clever to require a test, and just move to some other company what is not showing signs tha…

What these companies have successfully done is weed out all the great devs who value their time very much I'm not sure I understand this. A dev who valued their time very much would already be working at a job they liked enough not to be looking. As job satisfaction declines, time opens up to work on whatever you want to call this, a technical feeler, perhaps. A dev who values their time wouldn't get snowed under by…

Not for those of us who have experienced the pain of terrible management and burnout caused by this. The last search I did I was also working 50 hours a week under very poor project management. I had to rule out any prospects that involved meeting with recruiters or these screens. I got a job I liked.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#454

Post by sathvikl » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:14 AM UTC

hnrodey wrote: post #41

I'm going through the interview process this week at two different companies. One of the companies I found through an ad on Stack Overflow whereby they publish two programming "exercises/puzzles" with the opportunity to earn $100 for a correct answer to each puzzle ($200 total for two correct answers). While I spent more than eight hours on both puzzles, I found them to be thought provoking and I learned stuff in the…

which company was the one offering puzzle homework ?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#455

Post by noarchy » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:27 AM UTC

ClayFerguson wrote: post #417

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

I wish everybody would start just refusing to do these homework assignments. I always do. I think they know they lost a great developer when I just walk away. In a way it's just sort of them getting what they deserve (loss of a great worker), but if developers would just simply refuse these homework assignments, everybody would be better of. Homework is a stupid waste of time for young children, and it is as stupid s…

I have to concur with this. The interview process in tech seems like a hazing ritual, at times. In the current market, we should be able to use our leverage, as talent, to bring about some change in hiring practices.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#456

Post by einarvollset » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:28 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #449

ClayFerguson wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What these companies have successfully done is weed out all the great devs who value their time very much. Those who are desperate for a job will spend the 8hrs it takes on these silly tests and make it thru the process. Good developers who can take their choice of jobs will just ignore these companies who think they are being clever to require a test, and just move to some other company what is not showing signs tha…

What these companies have successfully done is weed out all the great devs who value their time very much I'm not sure I understand this. A dev who valued their time very much would already be working at a job they liked enough not to be looking. As job satisfaction declines, time opens up to work on whatever you want to call this, a technical feeler, perhaps. A dev who values their time wouldn't get snowed under by…

Not actually all that hard to understand: yes, lots of talented devs who hate wasting time have a job they like. However, N is a big number here, so your assertion on that fails.

Also, your assertion that "as job satisfaction declines, time opens up" also does not follow. Plenty of very talented people are both unsatisfied and snowed under with crap.

Finally, saying that a Dev wouldn't be snowed under because they wouldn't be applying willy-nilly would hold iff hiring practices at firms where even remotely efficient and fair.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#457

Post by bogomipz » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:34 AM UTC

MangezBien wrote: post #421

Interesting. I applied to DO about ten weeks ago. I had an initial phone screen, and they sent me a code challenge. I completed and turned in the challenge. Then I heard nothing for two weeks. I reached out to my contact there, and she got back to me a week later saying, "I've been waiting on feedback - sorry it's taking so long! I just pinged the manager again this morning." That was the last I heard from DO. I feel…

Consider yourself lucky. DO seem like a bunch of clowns. I'm not saying there aren't good people working there b/c I'm sure there are but by and large as an organization they are clowns, management recruiters etc. I think it was about a year ago that most of their ops department up and left. That should tell you something. It's not known as a great place to work(heard form ex employees) And if you consider their business model - a race to the bottom it's not surprising.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#458

Post by odonnellryan » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

steven777400 wrote: post #425

ClayFerguson wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the GREAT devs like me will not waste their time on your antics and will look elsewhere for a job at a company that is less of a hassle to deal with.

Great devs never apply for any job using the traditional job application (except maybe as an after-the-fact HR formality); they are always recommended and hand picked by their network. As a intermediate (after so many years, should I just replace that with 'mediocre') dev I think a test like this would be a fantastic way both for a company to judge me and for me to judge what a company would expect from me. There's a…

That isn't true for all devs.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#459

Post by dpeck » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:37 AM UTC

jmiserez wrote: post #374

dpeck wrote: post #90

I just instituted a coding assignment with our hiring (exceptions made for those with extensive github/similar open source contributions), and so far only have had three candidates do it, but I'm a fan. Mine is crafted so a really competent developer could get it done in 30 minutes, and intermediate 2 hours and a junior probably not finish. I tell them to send what they have in after two hours that I'm as interested…

>I tell them to send what they have in after two hours that I'm as interested in seeing the structure and thought process than the final result. While this seems like a good idea on paper, you know that people are not going to stop after 2 hours unless you force them to (i.e. by doing the assignment on-site). >get it done in 30 minutes, and intermediate 2 hours and a junior probably not finish. What kind of exercise…

well with 3 attempts one went over and kept working until he got a solution (took a while), another stopped at around 2 hours to submit and asked for feedback, 3rd finished in time and is a badass.

You've be surprised. Maybe I expect too much, but the assignment is essentially network aware k/v store with a single get command and set command. Extremely poor mans redis and a step up from an echo server but for some people doing anything over a network that isn't HTTP breaks them.

Thanks for website, my consulting/blog site that pretty much fell into disrepair after taking architect position at a startup.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#460

Post by odonnellryan » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:40 AM UTC

Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

No, it isn't but enough devs put up with it.