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A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

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Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#441

Post by Daniel_Newby »

Mithaldu wrote: post #423
Daniel_Newby wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not an unlimited supply of potential prisoners. As wmil says, imprisonable crimes are generally those arising from poor impulse control and low intelligence. (If you want to learn more, Russell Barkley has some informative books on the connection between brain executive function, intelligence, and life outcomes.) If we made wearing socks a three-strikes-eligible law, the same people would go to prison. Norma…

Proclaiming theories as fact is not a very nice way to proceed in an argument. That said, please consider a counter-theory to your theory: Due to the fact that many people imprisoned for long terms do end up obtaining their GED and one or more vocations, it seems quite probably that american criminal law is a test of education more than one of genetic factors.

Alas, no. Mental tests in childhood and early adolescence predict subsequent educational failure. The effect is independent of race, culture, parental socioeconomic status, etc.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#442

Post by brownbat »

ljf wrote: post #274
drivingmissm wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.S. violent crime rates have plummeted in part because of higher incarceration. A lot of people on this list don't remember when cities like New York and Washington, DC were very dangerous places and all native born inhabitants were leaving.

Because of incarceration? Do you have any stats that prove that link?

"Changes in incarceration and crime are significantly related during the period under consideration. Increases in state prison committals per 100,000 residents tend to reduce crime the following year, whereas increases in the number of persons released from state prisons per 100,000 reidents tend to increase crime the next year."

The National Research Council's "Understanding Crime Trends Workshop Report," eds. Goldberger, A. and Rosenfield, R.

It's tricky to isolate other social trends in the research though. Steven Levitt did a major study of prison overcrowding legislation, which can suddenly change incarceration rates if the legislation is successful, but not if it fails, a bit of a coinflip not directly connected to social or demographic shifts. He found evidence of a link under these conditions.

Levitt, S. The effect of prison population size on crime rates: evidence from prison overcrowding litigation.

Obviously those aren't the only two studies on the subject, it's been a focus of criminology research since it's been a discipline. Levitt followed up with a good meta-analysis that covered ten different explanations for the reduction of crime over the last few decades:

Levitt, S. Understanding Why Crime Fell in the 1990s: Four Factors that Explain the Decline and Six that Do Not. Journal of Economic Perspectives, Winter 2004. pp 163-190.

He cites John DiIulio (ie, DiiuLio) in that work. DiIulio has written a lot on the subject as well, usually arguing that incarceration rates have an impact on crime rates, but adding the nuance that three strikes laws rarely do much good.

Crime rates are very complex, and tied to many complex factors. Incarceration rate appears to be one such factor.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#443

Post by hnriot »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #346
rayiner wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU page is rather manipulative in that they construe the facts very favorably to the convicted. E.g. "After serving two years in prison during his mid-twenties for inadvertently killing someone during a bar fight." Oh yes, he just accidentally killed someone in a bar fight. Happens all the time really, right up there with leaving your credit card with the hostess after getting a little too tipsy. It would be le…

> Americans are particularly unsympathetic to racial minorities living on the edge. AFAICT, it's about neurological differences, not racial or cultural differences. White people with low IQ or poor impulse control get shafted just as hard, they are just a smaller proportion of the population. Gypsies and trailer trash are just as screwed as minorities of color.

"Gypsies and trailer trash are just as screwed as minorities of color."

I thought it really funny to be so "politically correct" when speaking of black people, yet quite happy to refer to "people with less color" as "trailer trash."

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#444

Post by rfnslyr »

enko wrote: post #389
heynk wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you advocate for the same 'top-down' approach to stimulating the economy in the US or another developed country? I think the concept of 'hawkers' could be easily applied to startups. Do you believe a good consumer should be supporting big corporations or fledgling startups? I'm just genuinely curious of your position and if you think the analogy applies in the first world.

I am not so sure it is such a good analogy. The "business model" of these hawkers in third world countries like Cambodia or Laos is to explicitly present themselves as impoverished, and then pressure or guilt-trip you into buying something from them as a gesture of charity. The OP seemed to encourage such behaviour, even admitted it was "crap" they were selling (it is). I'd suggest that any startup worth its salt is…

> The "business model" of these hawkers in third world countries like Cambodia or Laos is to explicitly present themselves as impoverished, and then pressure or guilt-trip you into buying something from them as a gesture of charity.

The fact that they even have to do this speaks volumes.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#446

Post by eropple »

SolarNet wrote: post #411
clarky07 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that there should be no prisons at all, and just mental hospitals? what do we do with "You will certainly have an incurable segment of the population who, after actually being treated by professionals and educated, cannot integrate with society"? Also, what do we do with those that are extremely violent and prone to escape? It seems reasonable that a tougher layer of security is warranted in some c…

I think he is suggesting something like this: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-pri... Where serious crimes like rape and murder (but not manslaughter) still come with heavy sentences (like 15-25 years) but in a place where you can be rehabilitated so when you get out it doesn't come to a second strike. (Also, the fact that rapists often get sentences under 10 years in this country is pretty ri…

Precisely. Thank you.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#447

Post by Mithaldu »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #441
Mithaldu wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proclaiming theories as fact is not a very nice way to proceed in an argument. That said, please consider a counter-theory to your theory: Due to the fact that many people imprisoned for long terms do end up obtaining their GED and one or more vocations, it seems quite probably that american criminal law is a test of education more than one of genetic factors.

Alas, no. Mental tests in childhood and early adolescence predict subsequent educational failure. The effect is independent of race, culture, parental socioeconomic status, etc.

That doesn't mean anything though. :)

It merely proved a correlation between mental ability and educational success in the current educational system.

It does not show whether the cause of crime is the actual lack of mental ability, or the failure of the education system to properly prepare them for adult life.

In other words: You've not shown that more effort to educate people would result in the same crime levels as with the current effort.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#448

Post by eropple »

SilasX wrote: post #440
WildUtah wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of any number of civil liberties which I would associate with the "right" wing of American politics. The ACLU, for example, was a leading plaintiff working to get the Citizens United ruling in favor of freedom of speech including corporate advocacy. The same ACLU is a strong Second Amendment supporter. And the NSA reform bills in the Congress have about equal support from both parties.

>The same ACLU is a strong Second Amendment supporter. Could you tell me specifically what definition of "strong supporter" you're using here? I can't think of any reasonable one that would make your claim true. Supporter, maybe. But a "strong supporter" is not someone who endorses a watered down version of the Second Amendment, and then spends zero effort defending infringements of that.

Disagreeing with your interpretation of the Second Amendment does not mean they do not support civil rights. Nor does spending their money and time defending civil rights that don't have massive organizations devoted to defending them.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#449

Post by PeterisP »

drostie wrote: post #368
PeterisP wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I feel a man could steal 1000 wallets and not deserve 10 years in jail" After, say, 100 wallets stolen how do you prevent the next 900 victims from suffering? The victims have absolute rights for protection and compassion; but a repeat offender has intentionally chosen to throw away whatever ties with society he had. There's a social contract about things we do and don't do to each other; we generally don't take oth…

I think the point is that for each wallet stolen we would send a guy to jail for, say, two days. If we think that the guy has stolen approximately 100 wallets we prevent the next 900 from suffering by imprisoning him for the most part of a year, and that's it. What I haven't seen yet is a comparison of cash, not to the cost of imprisonment, but to the cost of getting a job. That is, if someone is in prison for 200 da…

You can't ever make crime not net-profitable for people who just cover basic neccessities, and there are a lot of them.

You work for a month? You get a month's rent and food. You're in prison for a month? You get a worse bed but a bit better food - the lack of freedom sucks bigtime, but financially there's no difference.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#450

Post by tracker1 »

michaelt wrote: post #345
rayiner wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU page is rather manipulative in that they construe the facts very favorably to the convicted. E.g. "After serving two years in prison during his mid-twenties for inadvertently killing someone during a bar fight." Oh yes, he just accidentally killed someone in a bar fight. Happens all the time really, right up there with leaving your credit card with the hostess after getting a little too tipsy. It would be le…

It would be less biased to show statistics for the kind of people sentenced under the three strikes law, but that wouldn't tug the heart strings as much. Perhaps we could aspire to have a law that works right in outlier cases, not just on average?

If only we could have a system where a real, live flesh and blood person could make decisions regarding punishment upon a guilty conviction... we could call these people, I know, judges.. they could judge on a case by case basis and make appropriate decisions.

I know, now the problem lies with these judges having poor decision making skills... if only there were a process to removing or overriding their decisions.. like an "appeals" process.. or a way of electing new judges and "voting" them in and out of office...

Neah, that's crazy talk.. we need absolute maximum/minimum sentencing guidelines like three strikes so we can keep those privatized prisons full, and making money.

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