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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#441

Post by jasonlotito »

integraton wrote: post #396
jasonlotito wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What response? Speaking up?

Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Public shaming given the circumstances was not.

> Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate.

Speaking up to the individuals isn't always the easiest in a situation like that. It's easy to make that suggestion sitting behind a computer screen. So, she spoke up in the best way she knew how.

In the end, the result between the 3 parties (the 2 guys, PyCon, and her) ended amicably.

http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...

> Public shaming given the circumstances was not.

Well, neither was their actions. More so, in fact. That she reacted poorly is indicative of the seriousness of their actions. Sitting comfortably at home in our chairs it's easy to dismiss this as nothing. But it's not.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#442

Post by obstacle1 »

vor_ wrote: post #335

Being offended by that type of humor is certainly one thing, but I can't figure out why Adria seemed so upset by it when she publicly made the very same type of joke on Twitter with a friend of hers ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 ). As a result, I'm finding it difficult to understand where she's coming from.

Someone with a platform should take this and run with it. Pretty disgusting. This kind of hypocrisy can't be allowed to stand, especially not from a "developer advocate" who supposedly works to further the state of our industry.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#443

Post by Domenic_S »

jasonlotito wrote: post #393
josh-j wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think assuming or mentioning negative talking points in the form of a question is a productive way to have a discussion.

So then what culture is she encouraging? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved Those are the two things she did. Call people out who broke a rule. She also went to PyCon organizers to resolve it. So, what culture is she encouraging, and why would we want to discourage it?

She's encouraging an internet lynch mob, and that's a culture most communities actively discourage.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#444

Post by ErrantX »

mamoswined wrote: post #249
katbyte wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke. Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. Sh…

as "a women in tech" (eeew) I also agree. It's like people don't know the difference between misogyny, which should be unacceptable, and bawdiness, which is a matter of taste. She must be really sheltered. But why did this person's employer fire them? I certainly wouldn't fire anyone for this reason and I would hire someone who made dick jokes for sure.

Really, firing the individual makes sense to me. Pycon does have a code of conduct, which includes avoiding sexualised language. I'm not into the whole big brother idea, but there is such a thing as "time and place" :) and the wrong time and place to make sexualised jokes, is when you are sat in public at a conference with a policy against such things...

Reputationally, the company has a right to be both disappointed and concerned.

I don't really support Adria's approach to this (especially how she now appears to be dismissing even fair criticism as "trolling"). But the company has a reasonable argument for dismissal, whether this had splashed across the net or not.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#445

Post by obstacle1 »

pencilcode wrote: post #308
tn13 wrote: post #53

This is what happens now: In an all male team we decide to hire a girl. But then someone says "we wont be able to crack fallus jokes anymore? ". Screw it lets hire a guy ...

Sure. Single gender teams tend to achieve less in the long run so you basically get what you deserve.

We all know that you can't provide any evidence to back this up. What is your agenda? Why do you think we are stupid?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#446

Post by vor_ »

pencilcode wrote: post #190
sergiotapia wrote: post #17

I already sent SendGrid's sales department an email that I will boycott their company and recommend others do so as well moving forward. Where I work we were considering between SendGrid or Mandrill and this incident practically made our choice for us. We cannot and _will not_ support a company that backs[1] a person like this. [1] - https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328

They were being idiots and violating the code of conduct of pycon, and YES, it does apply to private conversations that others can't avoid hearing since they're in a public place. She shamed them rightly. As for them being fired, that was the company's call - who employed them. Now an anonymous guy posts this, she explains the whole sequence and in the end it's her fault. No, the responsability lies with who made the…

Well, Adria's posting of the picture without consent was itself a violation of PyCon's code of conduct. Frankly, it's hard to understand her position when she made the same kind of dick joke on Twitter in public to a friend where everyone could see it.

As it is, we have a situation where someone who makes dick jokes to her friends overheard someone else making a dick joke to a friend and intentionally shamed them by posting their picture on the internet. Clearly, this action was the catalyst for one of them getting fired; it was her goal to make an example out of these two and embarrass them on an internet scale.

Her self-righteousness belies the utter insignificance of what actually occurred. Comparing herself to Joan of Arc and claiming she "did it for future generations" doesn't help. On top of angering a lot of men and women alike, her behavior struck a nerve and has the potential to leave a bruise on gender equality in tech.

One can be in favor of equality and yet have the intellectual capacity to examine situations on a case-by-case basis and determine that this was a contradictory overreaction on her part that had undeserved consequences for one of the men.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#447

Post by djcapelis »

tn13 wrote: post #328
djcapelis wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry if some women are totally screwing up your bro culture, but I think that's actually the point.

The point is why cant we expect the women to adjust to the realities of the world? Wherever there are girls they are going to talk about other girls and their shoes and that sorta stuff which I might find offensive and wherever there are men they are going to talk about sex. I don't see why women take an offense to that. No one is cracking a joke on her or asking her to participate in the joke. I would rather have a…

> The point is why cant we expect the women to adjust to the realities of the world?

Why can't you adjust to the realities of the world where the view that women should just deal with whatever crap that exists in tech seems like a pretty terrible idea? Why can't you adjust to the reality that this means tech loses out on a lot of talent? Why can't you adjust to the reality that if you want to hire good talent, you need to provide an environment where they'll actually feel comfortable instead of demanding/expecting them to "adjust"?

> I expect Sendgrid to say something about the conduct of their employee.

For a bunch of reasons, I don't and I'm fine with that.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#448

Post by ratat »

jasonlotito wrote: post #415
ratat wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claims were verified after the damage was done. My point is that at the time she decided to take this photo (seemingly just after she overheard the statement) the claims were unverified. Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late.

> Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late. This is besides the point, as the claims were verified. But, I believe you are wrong. I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. Heck, her claims were verified, and their is still a much strong backlash from the community toward her and SendGrid. I agree. Crying wolf is should not be encouraged. But many t…

>I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here.

I believe you are wrong. The majority reponse would have been that she was telling the truth and nobody else overheard it.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#450

Post by Joeboy »

glass_of_water wrote: post #344
stephengillie wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "these jokes are sexist or offensive to women" was an axiom (in the logic sense) in my parents' religious household. It's incredibly confusing to see good and respectable people (like your friend) so eager to debase themselves with this humor.

How are they "debasing themselves with this humor"?

My reading of stephen's comment was that he probably recognises that it's a matter of cultural difference, rather than absolute truth. In some cultures, for a woman to tell those kinds of jokes would be debasing. In ours, not so much I guess.
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