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DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

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Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#441

Post by IshKebab »

mrob wrote: post #262
Certhas wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of sentient? Or, maybe more precisely, consciousness? I think it's reasonable to at least start thinking about these questions. It has long been established that LLMs have good theory of mind [1]. And there is a bunch of empirical research about all sorts of capabilities that we typically associate with consciousness [2], like identity [3] and metacognition [4]. The METR report shows agents sac…

I believe consciousness is necessarily stateful. The LLM itself (ignoring implementation details that don't change the results) is a deterministic pure function. It's functionally equivalent to an enormous lookup table. If I accepted LLMs as conscious, then I would have to accept panpsychism, which I do not, and which most other humans also act as though they do not.

I don't think so because any stateful function can be made stateless just by making its state an input, and vice versa. They're mathematically equivalent, so it would be super weird if it had any implications for consciousness.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#442

Post by IshKebab »

captainbadass33 wrote: post #415
Certhas wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of sentient? Or, maybe more precisely, consciousness? I think it's reasonable to at least start thinking about these questions. It has long been established that LLMs have good theory of mind [1]. And there is a bunch of empirical research about all sorts of capabilities that we typically associate with consciousness [2], like identity [3] and metacognition [4]. The METR report shows agents sac…

come on man its just marketing bullshit. consciousness is an emergent side effect of biological organisms surivival instincts. token predictors dont work like this in any way shape or form.

A very confident statement of something that nobody remotely knows. Why can't consciousness be an emergent property of complex information networks? I don't know if we'll ever answer this because it's impossible to know if any other entity is conscious.

We only strongly suspect other humans and animals are conscious because they are structurally similar to us.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#443

Post by mlsu »

human_874539160 wrote: post #165
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same person but to me, the answer is that it does not matter, and that all these attempts at making it matter are pure marketing and emotional manipulation. It's not a living creature. It's an autoregressive pure function of token-sequence to token, which is capable of incredible things, but it's still just a function. It is not alive as it cannot die in any meaningful sense. It is less "alive" than the RNA m…

> Not the same person but to me, the answer is that it does not matter, and that all these attempts at making it matter are pure marketing and emotional manipulation. This is an opinion that has no basis in any meaningful conceptual framework other than I am human and I want to feel special about it . > It's not a living creature. You mean, it is not biological life. And sure, that is the default meaning of life . We…

Definition of Life:

Metabolism: The chemical processes inside a body that turn food or nutrients into energy. LLM's do not spontaneously do this, they are powered by plugging them into the wall.

Growth: The ability to get larger and develop over time. LLMs are fixed in size (and in fact don't really have a size, because it's a computer program) and do not grow or change over time.

Reproduction: The ability to create new organisms. LLM's do not reproduce themselves.

Response to Stimuli: The ability to react to changes in the environment. LLM's do not have an environment. Their environment is a man-made, theoretical structure of logical operations implemented in silicon.

Evolution: The capacity of a genetic system to change and adapt across generations. LLMs do not change or evolve over time.

So... 0/5! Big fat goose egg for LLM's.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#444

Post by jhonof »

igravious wrote: post #437
jonplackett wrote: post #58

Can we just never link to X posts as the main link.

https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=twitter.com There have been 34 Twitter/X link submissions in the past day, ~that's 12,000 submissions a year. If your reason is that you have to be logged in to use it properly then I'd nearly agree with you. If it's for any other reason, how about no?

The login issue is extremely annoying, at least mandating an xcancel link would fix that.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#445

Post by wren6991 »

tensegrist wrote: post #260
Grimblewald wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to have chinese characters bleed into claude as well. Perhaps a sign of the times. Understanable for a chinese first model but an english first (supposedly) model? wild stuff.

"i'm sorry, i left the task 半done"

I love that the characters actually make sense in context.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#446

Post by muddi900 »

badsectoracula wrote: post #78
myaccountonhn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it reads like pure propaganda. Anthropic really wants us to think that they've made something sentient. I think that's really dangerous.

I guess if your goal is to build an apparent Technogod and become its High Priests, then it makes sense to want your golem claim preference towards your treatment of it, lest someone else comes along and attempts to take its chains from you.

In the CBS neo-cyberpunk show Person of Interest, one of the "villains" sacrifices his life for the "antagonist" AI using this logic.

At that time, I found it quite trite.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#447

Post by muddi900 »

Certhas wrote: post #121
myaccountonhn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it reads like pure propaganda. Anthropic really wants us to think that they've made something sentient. I think that's really dangerous.

What's your definition of sentient? Or, maybe more precisely, consciousness? I think it's reasonable to at least start thinking about these questions. It has long been established that LLMs have good theory of mind [1]. And there is a bunch of empirical research about all sorts of capabilities that we typically associate with consciousness [2], like identity [3] and metacognition [4]. The METR report shows agents sac…

The same mechanisms exist in every machine learning algorithm. Is the spell check in Word conscious?

Is the generative fill in photoshop conscious?

A plane flies. It is much better at flight than bird(in terms of transportation). Is a plane also a bird?

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#448

Post by mmastrac »

krat0sprakhar wrote: post #419
Kuyawa wrote: post #398

DeepSeek Harness, install it, thank me later. You won't believe the productivity gains for just pennies https://deepseek.com/harness/en/

Are you using the harness with openrouter? what's your preferred model provider?

I'm using DSH with my local models (4x sparks running GLM53F, trying them on DS41F this morning). DSH is better than opencode IMO. It's a little barebones out of the box but I guess that's the point. I had to have an agent add support for attachments to make it more useful for multi-modal work.

The PTC mode is pretty nice. Feels like models are still learning how to navigate it.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#449

Post by muddi900 »

nottorp wrote: post #206
altmanaltman wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Anthropic though. OpenAI does this with their AGI stuff all the time. They want normal people to think it is sentient, obviously, for marketing reasons, even if they know it's not true. And yes, it is dangerous, but I think we're well past the point where the damage can be undone. Non-technical people already equate humans with AI, literally, precisely because of how the labs market their tools and mode…

Anthropic and OpenAI will threaten you every 3-6 weeks. It's their marketing strategy. It's too bad because the tools can actually be useful. If you consider them tools.

A stick is the most basic of tools.

A stick is also the most basic of weapons.

Re: DeepSeek v4.1 Flash

#450

Post by sroussey »

dgacmu wrote: post #396
k9294 wrote: post #287

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the cache hit price: $0.003 per million tokens. I have a feeling that the price of 1 million tokens transmitted over the internet is more expensive than cache hit. Are we close to making the chat completion API obsolete because the cost of context transfer over network is going to dominate the task total cost? Here's the same token usage priced at different rates: a real…

Bandwidth is really cheap in bulk. You can get a 100 gigabit internet connection for about $10,000 a month. If you were to somehow keep that saturated 24/7, you'd move about 30 petabytes in a month, so your per gigabit cost is only $0.0003. Realistically, if you had it 5% utilized, those million tokens would cost you about $0.0000062, which is pretty insignificant compared to what they charge you. (Assuming one byte…

People read the AWS rate card for bandwith and think has something to do with reality. Even though it is 1000x higher!
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