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Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

reuters.com

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Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#441

Post by gershy »

cog-flex wrote: post #426
gershy wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love discussing this stuff, but I'm not interested in guessing what your non-specific language is referring to; I'll likely silently ignore that stuff. I generally support israel because: - I don't think it corresponds to your hypothetical (which I obviously disagree with) - It was internationally recognized by the UN, and I find the collective jewish effort put towards nation-building to be legitimizing - I suppor…

Saying Israel is a “functioning democracy with human rights” is not a truthful statement. First, Israel still has no single written constitution and instead operates through Basic Laws, something its own parliament acknowledges. So, not a democracy. Second, Israel was established through armed Zionist paramilitary groups conducting terror campaigns. Look up the Irgun and Lehi, both of which carried out bombings and o…

Breadth-first discussion is not effective.

Are citizens of israel able to vote for their leadership?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#442

Post by defrost »

gershy wrote: post #441
cog-flex wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying Israel is a “functioning democracy with human rights” is not a truthful statement. First, Israel still has no single written constitution and instead operates through Basic Laws, something its own parliament acknowledges. So, not a democracy. Second, Israel was established through armed Zionist paramilitary groups conducting terror campaigns. Look up the Irgun and Lehi, both of which carried out bombings and o…

Breadth-first discussion is not effective. Are citizens of israel able to vote for their leadership?

Party, yes. Leader, No. Individual representative, No.

And, of course, not everyone in the Israeli-occupied territories has suffrage.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#443

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #440
hardbass wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism, nazism and nationalism are proven time and again to cause mass death and destruction. Why engage in the stupidity of trying these faulty systems again and again? Nationalism is tied to and depends on ethnic composition existing in a state. Its much harder to induce nationalism in a mixed population. With israel of course we don't even need to come to such theoretical matters, as the entity was founded by v…

I'm interested in your very general stance ("seeds of harm") as I suspect it either classifies too many or too few states as undesirable, but I want to let you push your questions too. No sane (and non-ideological) person will defend israel at every turn. I want to avoid answering your question with a question but I also want to make sure we're talking about the same thing - whose land would you argue israel is settl…

Yes the classification of what is deemed soundly harmful to be allowed to exist goes on a false negative basis as would any such sane assessment be. I do not try to predict the future of every possible system, but it is quite clear some systems are always disastrous.

The people already living there under Ottoman and British rule obviously with suitable legal arrangements deemed agreeable by the former governments. The terroristic appropriation of British administered land just a few decades ago is of course not something anyone of a calm mind would deem as valid so by necessity claims of validity must trace from previous governments. Obviously if it were say a few centuries ago it'd have been not a matter worth doing anything about, time matters. And right now, further other peoples legal lands too, which settlers come at gunpoint and rob. Your state supports the illicit settlers viz the current ongoing expansions by technically non-state actors, quite aside from the state itself being an illicit settlement of course.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#444

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #443
gershy wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in your very general stance ("seeds of harm") as I suspect it either classifies too many or too few states as undesirable, but I want to let you push your questions too. No sane (and non-ideological) person will defend israel at every turn. I want to avoid answering your question with a question but I also want to make sure we're talking about the same thing - whose land would you argue israel is settl…

Yes the classification of what is deemed soundly harmful to be allowed to exist goes on a false negative basis as would any such sane assessment be. I do not try to predict the future of every possible system, but it is quite clear some systems are always disastrous. The people already living there under Ottoman and British rule obviously with suitable legal arrangements deemed agreeable by the former governments. Th…

I think there are plenty of ethnostates that function well internally, and do little unjustifiable harm to others.

So your question is "how to justify the movement of newcomers into the midst of former residents of british palestine and the ottoman empire"? The obvious initial answer - and I'm sure you'll have a pointed followup which I look forward to and will likely cause me to disavow israel in various ways - is that the lack of any state apparatus there (due to disintegration of the ottomans and withdrawal of the british) creates an environment in which there is a lack of formal resistance to the construction of a new state.

Essentially territory that is unencompassed by anything strongly resembling a state is a favourable place to construct a state.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#445

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #444
hardbass wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the classification of what is deemed soundly harmful to be allowed to exist goes on a false negative basis as would any such sane assessment be. I do not try to predict the future of every possible system, but it is quite clear some systems are always disastrous. The people already living there under Ottoman and British rule obviously with suitable legal arrangements deemed agreeable by the former governments. Th…

I think there are plenty of ethnostates that function well internally, and do little unjustifiable harm to others. So your question is "how to justify the movement of newcomers into the midst of former residents of british palestine and the ottoman empire"? The obvious initial answer - and I'm sure you'll have a pointed followup which I look forward to and will likely cause me to disavow israel in various ways - is t…

Why the british withdrew is closely connected as the Israeli/Zionist continuous terroristic attacks against the British and clamping down the Israeli/Arab terrorist factions warring is what was the final straw that broke the camel's back of a country already weakened by WW2. The fact of a place lacking a formal military I hope doesn't make it legal or okay by the some entity to violate their property rights, for the same could be said equally either way for Israeli illegal settlement expansions, for if there is no clear state system there, what's the objection against shooting down the squatters? (Even with a real state existing some countries have things like the Castle doctrine of course, which gives a full legal justification to shoot down the Israeli squatters). The real question that must be answered is if the locals are okay with you arriving, if you came in and legally purchased property or were granted some parcels of land with agreement by the locals, neither of which of course occurred during the violent establishment of Israel. The question of property and territory is very ancient and predates even humans, even animals have a sense of territory. So if you do not respect the existing legal claims by the British or Ottoman governments or claims by precedent of living, then you should be justly treated as an illegal invader. It is a very high degree of naked ingratitude to complain and start attacks against the Brits for controlling their own border and restricting immigration to their own lands, behaving as if these random Poles and Russians literally own the place. Would you support random Poles or Russians performing terrorist attacks against America if the USA instituted a strong and limited immigration quota upon them? Because that's what happened in the region of Israel back then. I completely understand the Holocaust but that gives a person no right to go ahead and rob at gunpoint an unrelated entity's land, moreover launching attacks against a country that bled so much fighting against nazis.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#446

Post by KingMob »

suburban_strike wrote: post #428
KingMob wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said Israel, not Jews. Don't be antisemitic.

All Jews are dual citizens of Israel. Whether or not they've invoked the right to return, access is made available to them by default.

That is absolutely false. Israel offering citizenship *does not* mean diaspora Jews are their citizens.

This regurgitates two lies:

1. The old antisemitic trope that Jews have dual loyalties, and are therefore, untrustworthy and not full citizens of whatever country they reside in.

2. The Israeli state's claim that it represents, and speaks for, all Jews, when it doesn't.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#447

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #445
gershy wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are plenty of ethnostates that function well internally, and do little unjustifiable harm to others. So your question is "how to justify the movement of newcomers into the midst of former residents of british palestine and the ottoman empire"? The obvious initial answer - and I'm sure you'll have a pointed followup which I look forward to and will likely cause me to disavow israel in various ways - is t…

Why the british withdrew is closely connected as the Israeli/Zionist continuous terroristic attacks against the British and clamping down the Israeli/Arab terrorist factions warring is what was the final straw that broke the camel's back of a country already weakened by WW2. The fact of a place lacking a formal military I hope doesn't make it legal or okay by the some entity to violate their property rights, for the…

You're branching off in a lot of directions. Is there a specific point you'd like to focus on? Do you agree "territory unencompassed by anything strongly resembling a state is a favourable place to construct a state"?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#448

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #447
hardbass wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the british withdrew is closely connected as the Israeli/Zionist continuous terroristic attacks against the British and clamping down the Israeli/Arab terrorist factions warring is what was the final straw that broke the camel's back of a country already weakened by WW2. The fact of a place lacking a formal military I hope doesn't make it legal or okay by the some entity to violate their property rights, for the…

You're branching off in a lot of directions. Is there a specific point you'd like to focus on? Do you agree "territory unencompassed by anything strongly resembling a state is a favourable place to construct a state"?

Absolutely not, unless the region is completely empty of people or land ownerships. Otherwise state or no, the stakeholders have the justified right to self defense. I am not going in many directions, it's all the same thing. If one does not have a right to a land and try to force yourself onto it, then the stakeholders of that land have a legal right to shoot them dead. Whether its killing the illegal settlers taking over peoples lands today or for the entire illictly formed state itself to be dismantled and the properties restores to the just and rightful owners.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#449

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #448
gershy wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're branching off in a lot of directions. Is there a specific point you'd like to focus on? Do you agree "territory unencompassed by anything strongly resembling a state is a favourable place to construct a state"?

Absolutely not, unless the region is completely empty of people or land ownerships. Otherwise state or no, the stakeholders have the justified right to self defense. I am not going in many directions, it's all the same thing. If one does not have a right to a land and try to force yourself onto it, then the stakeholders of that land have a legal right to shoot them dead. Whether its killing the illegal settlers takin…

I don't understand how you can disagree that generally, "territory unencompassed by anything strongly resembling a state is a favourable place to construct a state". Surely you don't agree with its negation?? I'm guessing you meant to say that you do agree in general, but in israel's specific case you have a list of "grievances" which, in sum, outweigh this general principle?

If that's correct, then it sounds like your grievances are (1) the builders of israel used terror against the british and were ungrateful to them (2) local arabs were opposed to the construction of the state of israel (3) since the construction of israel, the rights of arabs there have been impacted (4) the territory of israel was not fully purchased from some other entity (5) the right of diaspora jews to return to the land of their ethnogenesis "expired" over the course of ~3000 years (6) you don't support ethnostates.

I want to understand if this is a nearly exhaustive list, and I would like to know the nature of how these points sum together in such a way that opposes you to israel: e.g., is there any single point that alone would maintain your opposition to israel? (Imagine you somehow changed your mind on all points but one of them at random - is there any chance you still remain opposed to israel?) Is there any single point on which your entire opposition to israel hinges? (Imagine you somehow changed your mind on just one random point - is there a non-zero chance you now generally support israel?) Understanding how these grievances sum together will let us know which points are worth discussing, and will give a nice sense of the scope of our disagreement.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#450

Post by gershy »

defrost wrote: post #442
gershy wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breadth-first discussion is not effective. Are citizens of israel able to vote for their leadership?

Party, yes. Leader, No. Individual representative, No. And, of course, not everyone in the Israeli-occupied territories has suffrage.

If your objections are that parties are elected rather than leaders, and that non-israelis can't vote, it sounds like you are straining very hard to deny that israel is a democracy.
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