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We've made the world too complicated

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Re: We've made the world too complicated

#441

Post by [deleted] »

freeopinion wrote: post #372
timacles wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be more precise, the late stage capitalism phase we are in has designed itself around destroying anything that contributes to society. Nothing can exist without making a profit. If there is something that is useful, our system makes sure it will be exploited for maximum profit which will in turn destroy that very things.

I have spent my entire adult life getting paid for a particular skillset. At the same time I have donated that skillset to family, friends, neighbors, and strangers. Every single time I have been paid for my skillset I have guaranteed that the results of my labor were reusable by everyone on the planet, not just the party paying me. I am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society. I do…

[deleted]

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#442

Post by wolvesechoes »

freeopinion wrote: post #410
freeopinion wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charity is the only thing that can save us. Tax is just a different take on charity. We all agree to pay into the community chest to provide for a pubic commons. Resistance to progressive tax is resistance to a type of charity. One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. If charity won't save us taxes never will.

Please indulge me to try to clarify my thought. Before you choose to practice capitalism or something else, you should choose whether to be a good person who contributes to society. Those two things are independent of each other. First choose to be a good person. Then employ whatever gift of intelligence you have to build super efficient systems in pursuit of doing good. Capitalism is like gravity. Gravity isn't good…

> Capitalism is like gravity

We created capitalism, we didn't create gravity. Humans are conscious political actors and can decide how they want to organize their society.

> Capitalism is just a set of observations about those interactions. Capitalists can be selfish or generous (or both).

Capitalism it social, material and symbolical structure, not some set of observations.

Sorry, but what you write is pure ideology. You naturalize something created socially and politically.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#443

Post by wolvesechoes »

freeopinion wrote: post #386
wolvesechoes wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society. I don't think I am that unusual in this respect. I see people acting very capitalistic to operate community gardens with the maximum margins. I see highly trained experts volunteer as educators. I see well-paid doctors and lawyers raking up leaves for their neighbors. I see accountants freelancing to keep the blind center afloat. Charity…

Charity is the only thing that can save us. Tax is just a different take on charity. We all agree to pay into the community chest to provide for a pubic commons. Resistance to progressive tax is resistance to a type of charity. One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. If charity won't save us taxes never will.

No. Charity depends on good will. Taxes do not.

Charity, helping the poor etc. is postulated for thousands of years, and didn't bring any effect. Do you know what did? Public policies and public investments, and proper tax regulations to finance them.

Hell, good, progressive tax policy should even be seen as beneficial for those that praise capitalism for it's productivity and efficiency, as it creates incentives for investments and better wages instead of rent-seeking and fat-growing.

Now, I am not against charity. There will always be a room for it, as there will be room for volunteering and communal activities. But it won't solve systemic problems, like growing inequality, poor housing, environmental issues, political corruption etc

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#444

Post by poisonborz »

rdwrrr wrote: post #440

We've made government so involved that we can not escape. My radical believe is that I just want to be left alone. In theory I have enough investments to live off if it wasnt for taxes and inflation. In theory I could buy a plot of land and take care of myself. An easy and simple existence. I know all very radical..

Except not true. Civilised man is not independent. You buy that plot of land and... build a house with which materials. You need to get at least some groceries. If you get sick, who heals you? If you are abused, or you abuse someone, they need protection Etc etc. Coordination and oversight (= government) is a must.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#445

Post by NonHyloMorph »

freeopinion wrote: post #372
timacles wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be more precise, the late stage capitalism phase we are in has designed itself around destroying anything that contributes to society. Nothing can exist without making a profit. If there is something that is useful, our system makes sure it will be exploited for maximum profit which will in turn destroy that very things.

I have spent my entire adult life getting paid for a particular skillset. At the same time I have donated that skillset to family, friends, neighbors, and strangers. Every single time I have been paid for my skillset I have guaranteed that the results of my labor were reusable by everyone on the planet, not just the party paying me. I am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society. I do…

You probably haven't realised (which is often the case with tge negativities, the holes in our thought), and I would be genuinely interested in your reflection on this when I point it out: you are talking about the actions of experts lawyers well paid doctors and accountants. Maybe as example for people like you (someone claiming to be a devout capitalist). All the described positions in a stratificed society are rather priviliged but also still people who work. What role do the people play, that are not part of that social strata?

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#446

Post by NonHyloMorph »

freeopinion wrote: post #386
wolvesechoes wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society. I don't think I am that unusual in this respect. I see people acting very capitalistic to operate community gardens with the maximum margins. I see highly trained experts volunteer as educators. I see well-paid doctors and lawyers raking up leaves for their neighbors. I see accountants freelancing to keep the blind center afloat. Charity…

Charity is the only thing that can save us. Tax is just a different take on charity. We all agree to pay into the community chest to provide for a pubic commons. Resistance to progressive tax is resistance to a type of charity. One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. If charity won't save us taxes never will.

You can decide to be ccahritable or not. But it is expected that you contribute to the society, from whose efforts, infrastructure, labourpower, guarantees of a legal order etc. you profit, if you are an entity that is about profit. You can also be charitable on top and for most people, that is what it means to be charitable. If you do give less then you would owe anyways, and work towards enabling yourself to do so, it's quite a framing to then call it charity.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2026/jan/06/us-exemptio...

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#447

Post by qsera »

pixl97 wrote: post #382
qsera wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>just disagree that more people are sick now.. There are more sickness inducing things in air, water and food. And it is not slowing down. We are adding more and more of it..Look up "Regrettable substitution", and that is exactly as hopeless as it sounds... So regulations are not doing shit. So given that, and the basic implication that consuming more sickness inducing stuff would make more people sick, why do you ne…

>There are more sickness inducing things in air, water and food. I mean, just no. Unfortunately I don't have a time machine to kick your ass back 300 years ago to a city like London so you get to experience it for yourself.

>I mean, just no.

What exactly are you claiming? Environmental pollution was more 300 years ago than it is now?

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#448

Post by defrost »

qsera wrote: post #447
pixl97 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are more sickness inducing things in air, water and food. I mean, just no. Unfortunately I don't have a time machine to kick your ass back 300 years ago to a city like London so you get to experience it for yourself.

>I mean, just no. What exactly are you claiming? Environmental pollution was more 300 years ago than it is now?

The claim is twofold, that London, a major capital city, arguably the largest most important city at that time, had little to no functional sewerage, turds floating down the Thames, people drinking cholera straight from the pump, etc.

Which was true at that time.

The second part of the claim is that is no longer the case for London, and somewhat implied is that few other large capitals of the world have such extreme issues now as London has had in the past.

London may have cleaned up, but that'd be a stretch for several large modern cities in India, South America, Indonesia, etc. that are straining their civic infrastructure or applying unevenly.

Globally, in total mass (or other measures) environmental pollution is "worse" now - just largely less visible (pushed from the G20 out to other countries) or dismissed (carbon dioxide is good for plants!! (etc.)).

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#449

Post by NonHyloMorph »

blinkbat wrote: post #419
freeopinion wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might think that my brain is broken, but I do not think that capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive. I think that capitalism describes the effects of acting out of self interest. I think that people can act in a way that they think is in their best self interest when it actually isn't. Also, "self interest" can have qualifiers like "near term", "long term", etc. Self interest is frequently complicated. S…

"I am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society." sorry, but these cannot coexist. you are deceiving yourself.

There is social market economy which can be cosidered to operate within a capitalist framework to some extent, but also to operate within a socialist framework to some extent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy. So it is worth to also think about it as continuous phenomena and not as binaries. But I agree with you: "I'm a devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society" made me think selfdeception, too.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#450

Post by NonHyloMorph »

wolvesechoes wrote: post #443
freeopinion wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charity is the only thing that can save us. Tax is just a different take on charity. We all agree to pay into the community chest to provide for a pubic commons. Resistance to progressive tax is resistance to a type of charity. One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. If charity won't save us taxes never will.

No. Charity depends on good will. Taxes do not. Charity, helping the poor etc. is postulated for thousands of years, and didn't bring any effect. Do you know what did? Public policies and public investments, and proper tax regulations to finance them. Hell, good, progressive tax policy should even be seen as beneficial for those that praise capitalism for it's productivity and efficiency, as it creates incentives for…

Even Ford realised that it was in his best interest, for his workers to "only" work 8 hours a day, since their wellbeing was the prerequisite for the labour power (they were selling to him precisely at a price point lower then it's value) that was the basis for his value production and value extraction.
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