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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#441

Post by mchusma »

stronglikedan wrote: post #88
mchusma wrote: post #38

Red light running is bad...but I think the solution to this problem at this point is just "self driving cars". With some exceptions, I would just focus all jurisdictions on this future and avoid policy inline with a world full of self driving cars. Currently in the US, most places feel like you need a car, and many US laws are designed with this in mind. In 5 years, this will no longer be true, so laws should reflect…

Most people like to drive and don't share your views, and it will be that way in five years too.

I’m skeptical.

The average cost of car ownership is $0.69 per mile without insurance, $0.25 per mile to store it, and $0.49 per mile in societal costs (death, injuries, delays due to accidents). So about $1.43 per mile. I do not enjoy driving, so would add more cost per mile, maybe some would want to pay more but I do t see that much joyriding outside of teenagers and classic car enthusiasts, so I don’t think those that do it for pleasure is a large population.

Tesla cybercab is targeting $0.20 per mile. Waymo projections are $0.40 per mile by 2030. Assuming both hit $0.50 and are twice as safe, this is basically $0.75 per mile.

I don’t see may paying more to drive themselves. And I think as society there will be non economic reasons human driven cars get banned. Like MADD but for human cars.

So I expect 5 years and human cars will not make sense in many cases, 10 years new human car sales to be <50% current levels, 15 years you start seeing bans. 20 years bans common.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#442

Post by dodobirdlord »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #154
IncreasePosts wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems silly. Just attach the ticket to the car itself and then the registered owner can handle obtaining payment from whoever was driving the car. If the registered owner wants to claim that someone stole their car or was operating it without permission then there can be some very hefty punishment for making false statements if it can be proved that it was actually the owner in the car.

I believe the issue is that moving violations often give you points on your license. If it was just a fine I think they could put it on the car, but because the of the potential loss of a license they need to actually have evidence of a person committing the violation.

I suppose they could also put the points on the car and impound it after it accrues enough points to have a drivers license suspended. Hard to drive if you don’t have a car.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#443

Post by tuckerman »

ratelimitsteve wrote: post #308
tuckerman wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like that is not the case in Florida according to this judge.

it's not true anywhere in america, at the very least.

I agree that's likely true but I'm not sure if there are any jurisdictions finding things differently? I'm not aware of any rulings from appeals courts with broader jurisdiction but I imagine if they don't exist they will soon.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#444

Post by LorenPechtel »

crote wrote: post #140
0x3f wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it doesn't! It's 2 to 10 times more! It's literally not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r... > Belgium 7.3 > Slovenia 7.0 > US 6.9 > France 5.8 Never mind all the other countries that do have presumption of guilt, which are also comparable in per-mile road deaths. And the ones with presumption but which _are_ 10x worse. Allowing the presumption is very clearly not well-correlated wit…

You are conveniently leaving out some European countries, such as Norway being at 3.0 per 1B km. You are also conveniently leaving it the per-capita figures, with US being at 14.2 per 100k while countries like Norway, Sweden, and Finland being at 2.x, and Europe as a while being at 6.7. So sure, "10x more" might be an exaggeration, but "2x more" is fairly accurate and even a claim of "7x more" is arguable.

The problem with both of these numbers is that they are highly sensitive to how (city/suburban/rural, freeway/highway/byway) people drive.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#445

Post by LorenPechtel »

wat10000 wrote: post #163
true_religion wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the risks that running a red light pose aren’t civil in nature, so it feels like a perversion to use civil infractions as an excuse to get sloppy with enforcement.

The alternative would be an actual criminal record because you misjudged a yellow light.

If the yellows are set correctly there should be very little of misjudging. You see yellow, if you can reasonably stop you do so. Judging only is an issue when you're going below the speed limit.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#446

Post by engelo_b »

The ripple effects for automotive liability will be interesting to watch here. For a long time, insurance companies have viewed these citations as an easy signal for high-risk behavior. If that signal is now legally 'poisoned fruit' in Florida, it likely makes the move toward private telematics tracking your actual braking and speed via apps even more inevitable for the carriers. They are going to want that risk data one way or another, and private tracking bypasses the due process issues of municipal cameras.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#447

Post by hrimfaxi »

mulmen wrote: post #432
hrimfaxi wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which leads to the extreme—maximal crime leads to maximum police budgets!

There’s no upper bound for either of those things.

I don't disagree. When the state runs out of enemies it manufactures more.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#448

Post by LorenPechtel »

smsm42 wrote: post #104
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Yeah, keeping this would be a dangerous precedent. If the state can presume you're guilty in a traffic case, why not extend it to other cases? Stuff like that is routinely used in legal arguments, "we are doing X so why can't we do Y which is essentially the same?" So say they'd go for "we have your phone located within the vicinity of where murder is committed, now prove you're not a murderer!" or "your license plac…

Yup. Camel's noses should always be shot. Otherwise they creep in more and more.

Some examples that come to mind:

Look how the exception for searches at border crossings has expanded.

The use of actions against licenses for behavior that has nothing to do with the license.

The use of permits to get companies to do things only marginally related to the purpose of the permit.

The encouragement of universities to expel those accused of criminal acts--just because the punishment isn't jail should not mean the state can hand it off to a kangaroo court.

Pressuring financial companies to cut ties with disliked things. (For example, getting Steam to remove games with any whiff of incest. Either declare them illegal or don't take action against them!)

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#449

Post by zer00eyz »

sowbug wrote: post #409
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I get your point, but I doubt the fine could have been ethically higher. Domino's drivers killed dozens of people in speed-related accidents before they ended their 30-minute guarantee. I don't think our society is ready for the combination of automatic enforcement and truly punitive penalties. We readily demonize the accused; just having your mugshot taken can end your employability. Yet many of us break laws daily…

https://thehustle.co/originals/the-failure-of-the-dominos-30...

"Domino’s confirmed it knew of 20 people who died in crashes involving its drivers in 1988 (the National Safe Workplace Institute would later claim Domino’s delivery drivers had about the same death rate as miners, who had a fatality rate of ~35 per 100k)."

For that same period, the death rate per 100k of young drivers was 46 per 100k https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00044682.htm

And to compare truck drivers 27 per 100k: https://www.malmanlaw.com/malman-law-injury-blog/is-being-a-...

Is this a dominos problem, or a young drivers problem or...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#450

Post by aldonius »

hrimfaxi wrote: post #430
elliottkember wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get a parking ticket regardless of who parked

Is there no distinction between standing and moving violations?

Either way, it's bizarre that blame-assignation is anything other than defaults-to-owner.
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