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Where things stand with the Department of War

anthropic.com

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Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#441

Post by paulddraper »

regularization wrote: post #250
fwipsy wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attitude towards war depends on context. In 2007 "war" meant "Iraq" which was extremely unpopular, pointless, and had an imperialist flavor. Today "war" means Gaza, Iran, and Venezuela, but it also means Ukraine and Chinese aggression, possibly ramping up to an invasion of Taiwan. I suspect Amodei and many Anthropic employees are thinking of the latter.

> Chinese aggression, possibly ramping up to an invasion of Taiwan. It's amusing amidst the US bombing Iran, incarceration the president of Venezuela and his wife after slaughtering everyone who was in the room with him, seizing oil tankers off Cuba, continuing the siege of Gaza and on and on to start getting sanctimonious about China. Taiwan is Kinmen island in Xiamen harbor, so a mainland invasion of Taiwan would b…

> if mainland China did choose to reassert it's rightful authority in Taiwan

Wait...you mean China doesn't currently have authority in Taiwan?

How could that be??

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#442

Post by lkey »

hereme888 wrote: post #400
agigao wrote: post #140

Around 10 years ago, in college, in Calculus class I had a very ambitious classmate, wanted to go to DARPA and work on Robotics. I asked if he was thinking it through solely from technical perspective or considering ethics side as well. Clearly, he didn't understand the question and I directly inquired - what if the code you write or autonomous machine you contribute to used for killing? His response - that's not my…

That's just patently false. Tons of executives and board members in industry absolutely care. Some are in it just for philanthropic purposes.

Oh? Name them, with receipts for actions taken, not vague gestures towards morality.

The actual logical end point of most of the 'for the good of humanity' folks in the bay area is:

'Only I can be trusted with the money, power, and weapons that I believe will break the world, but I promise it is for the best. No system or power should hold me to account in the event I am wrong or change my mind. Trust me.'

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#443

Post by seanmcdirmid »

regularization wrote: post #250
fwipsy wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attitude towards war depends on context. In 2007 "war" meant "Iraq" which was extremely unpopular, pointless, and had an imperialist flavor. Today "war" means Gaza, Iran, and Venezuela, but it also means Ukraine and Chinese aggression, possibly ramping up to an invasion of Taiwan. I suspect Amodei and many Anthropic employees are thinking of the latter.

> Chinese aggression, possibly ramping up to an invasion of Taiwan. It's amusing amidst the US bombing Iran, incarceration the president of Venezuela and his wife after slaughtering everyone who was in the room with him, seizing oil tankers off Cuba, continuing the siege of Gaza and on and on to start getting sanctimonious about China. Taiwan is Kinmen island in Xiamen harbor, so a mainland invasion of Taiwan would b…

China looks like the good guy now, but if Xi decided to “reassert control” over Taiwan, it would quickly become an international pariah and everyone would forget about Trump immediately, the country would immediately be isolated from everyone other than their closest (geographically speaking) allies. Is China ready to do that? Not today, maybe in a decade or two (when they’ve replaced the USA as the top economic/military power, there won’t be severe consequences). Xi is smart enough to wait, taking Taiwan now wins them nothing and loses them everything.

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#444

Post by pjmlp »

jedberg wrote: post #358
hax0ron3 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The late 90s were full of media that questioned reality and authority - like X-Files, The Matrix, Dark City, all sorts of websites about conspiracy theories and UFOs, etc. The zeitgeist was full of speculation about hidden truths. The cultural mood was defiant and sardonic. There was rap, rap-rock, Beavis and Butthead, Fight Club, Office Space... One of the most popular pro wrestlers in the world played a character w…

Gen-X was making the popular new art at the time. It was a strong reflection of the feelings of our generation. We were (maybe still are?) known for not liking authority.

As Gen-Xer I fully agree, I don't get the way things are with obedience, the rediculous situation that American families can lose their kids by having them playing alone in the garden, how everyone sells out for money (Punk would not happen today), the always smile and say no negatives at work being rediculous false (this one really drives me crazy),....

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#445

Post by nyargh »

kortilla wrote: post #439
nyargh wrote: post #433

I would say to you who would equivocate and dither about lending your skills to a morally and ethically compromised war machine in exchange for a fat paycheck, the same thing that I teach my children: "Everything and I mean everything can be taken from you except your integrity, only you can give that up"

Defense doesn’t pay better than regular tech. The people in defense are doing it because they believe in helping the govt.

I would argue those at OpenAI or Anthropic are making considerably more than just "regular tech"

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#446

Post by godelski »

dismalaf wrote: post #406
godelski wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the funniest part is the fact that all the western countries are even afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence. It's a much better argument to say Korea or Japan are ruled by the US (and Korea and Japan absolutely hate one another!). Does the US have influence in Taiwan? Certainly! But if that meant Taiwan was the US's puppet then Taiwan would simultaneously be China's puppet. Schrödinger's Vassal

> afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence No one is afraid. Taiwan themselves still claim to be the Republic of China and not separate from the rest of China.

  > No one is afraid.
You seem to have trouble reading. Here's a map that shows countries that recognize Taiwan's independence[0]. That's a lot of gray...

  > Taiwan themselves still claim to be the Republic of China and not separate from the rest of China.
You seem very confused... but I get it, it is confusing

Mainland China's current government is called the "People's Republic of China" (PRC)[1]

Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China" (RoC)[2]

The difference of one word is very important. It's easy to miss, which is why Taiwan even changed its passport[3]... over a decade ago.

But also... they issue different passports. They have different governments. Really, this is not hard to understand that Taiwan considers themselves independent and the PRC considers the RoC a bunch of rebels. And... what do rebels typically do?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_T...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_People%27s...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

[3] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1758230.stm

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#447

Post by pjmlp »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #360
jadar wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

All of our current leaders as using God to justify their terrible actions. So religion doesn’t seem to be very good at teaching morals either.

That justification is so rediculous for anyone that can think, like which side should He take?

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#448

Post by kortilla »

mindslight wrote: post #317
SoftTalker wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They just hired someone else without an ethical backbone Or who simply had a different point of view than you.

Yes, a point of view without an ethical backbone, at least in the context of American society. I suppose they could be a Chinese or Russian national considering it ethical to harm the United States, but I don't see a point of drawing that distinction.

Being blanket against CBP is a position without an ethical backbone. It’s just a childish burying head in the sand. Every semi stable country enforces its immigration laws and checks passports of visitors. Claiming the US doing so is somehow unethical is completely misaligned with a sustainable welfare and government services system.

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#449

Post by endofreach »

lukan wrote: post #390
bobbiechen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m going to tell you about how I took a job building software to kill people. >But don’t get distracted by that; I didn’t know at the time. Caleb Hearth: "Don't Get Distracted" https://calebhearth.com/dont-get-distracted

But he did know he was going to work for the military. "I’d be joining a contracting company for the Department of Defense." (But interesting article otherwise)

To be fair, the name of that Department used to be very confusing...

Re: Where things stand with the Department of War

#450

Post by toyg »

hglaser wrote: post #18

It is incredible how far the overton window has moved on this issue. When I graduated in 2007, it was common for tech companies to refuse to let their systems be used for war, and it was an ordinary thing when some of my graduating classmates refused to work at companies that did let their systems be used for war. Those refusals were on moral grounds. Now Anthropic wants to have two narrow exceptions, on pragmatic an…

You have to recognize that boomers, with all their faults, took military action seriously. And Silicon Valley looked up to the likes of John Perry Barlow and 60s counterculture.

Their kids don't give a shit.

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