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Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

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Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#441
post #355
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the parent commenter is completely right. The attestation portion of those systems is happening on locked down devices, and if you gain ownership of the devices they no longer attest themselves. This is the curse of the duopoly of iOS and Android. BankID in Sweden will only run with one of these devices, they used to offer a card system but getting one seems to be impossible these days. So you're really…

as you say, a lot of this stuff is already happening. Won’t it be good to have a FOSS attestation stack that breaks the iOS/android duopoly?

Well, it depends. I can now do banking from my desktop computer because there is no way our banks can attest that we're running our browsers in their approved hardware+software stack. Of course they can already disable banking from the browser but if they choose to keep it open but require attestation in your browser when it becomes possible, I don't think it's a good thing.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#442

Remote attestation only works because your CPU's secure enclave has a private key burned-in (fused) into it at the factory. It is then provisioned with a digital certificate for its public key by the manufacturer. Every time you perform an attestation the public key (and certificate) is divulged which makes it a unique identifier, and one that can be traced to the point of sale - and when buying a used device, a poin…

Anonymous-attestation protocols are well known in cryptography, and some are standardized: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Anonymous_Attestation

But what's it attesting? Their byline "Every system starts in a verified state and stays trusted over time" should be "Every system starts in a verified state of 8,000 yet-to-be-discovered vulns and stays in that vulnerable state over time". The figure is made up but see for example https://tuxcare.com/blog/the-linux-kernel-cve-flood-continue.... So what you're attesting is that all the bugs are still present, not that the system is actually secure.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do, I disagree with this commenter. You already trust third parties, but there is no reason why that third party can't be the very same entity publishing the distribution. The role corporations play in attestation for the devices you speak of can be displaced by an open source developer, it doesn't need to require a paid certificate, just a trusted one. Furthermore, attestation should be optional at the hardwa…

see latest "MS just divilged disk encryption keys to govt" news to see why this is a horrid idea

I’m skeptical about the push toward third-party hardware attestation for Linux kernels. Handing kernel trust to external companies feels like repeating mistakes we’ve already seen with iOS and Android, where security mechanisms slowly turned into control mechanisms.

Centralized trust Hardware attestation run by third parties creates a single point of trust (and failure). If one vendor controls what’s “trusted,” Linux loses one of its core properties: decentralization. This is a fundamental shift in the threat model.

Misaligned incentives These companies don’t just care about security. They have financial, legal, and political incentives. Over time, that usually means monetization, compliance pressure, and policy enforcement creeping into what started as a “security feature.”

Black boxes Most attestation systems are opaque. Users can’t easily audit what’s being measured, what data is emitted, or how decisions are made. This runs counter to the open, inspectable nature of Linux security today.

Expanded attack surface Adding external hardware, firmware, and vendor services increases complexity and creates new supply-chain and implementation risks. If the attestation authority is compromised, the blast radius is massive.

Loss of user control Once attestation becomes required (or “strongly encouraged”), users lose the ability to fully control their own systems. Custom kernels, experimental builds, or unconventional setups risk being treated as “untrusted” by default.

Vendor lock-in Proprietary attestation stacks make switching vendors difficult. If a company disappears, changes terms, or decides your setup is unsupported, you’re stuck. Fragmentation across vendors also becomes likely.

Privacy and tracking Remote attestation often involves sending unique or semi-unique device signals to external services. Even if not intended for tracking, the capability is there—and history shows it eventually gets used.

Potential for abuse Attestation enables blacklisting. Whether for business, legal, or political reasons, third parties gain the power to decide what software or hardware is acceptable. That’s a dangerous lever to hand over.

Harder incident response If something goes wrong inside a proprietary attestation system, users and distro maintainers may have little visibility or ability to respond independently.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#444
Hmph, AFAIK systemd has been struggling with TPM stuff for a while (much longer than I anticipated). It’s kinda understandable that the founder of systemd is joining this attestation business, because attestation ultimately requires far more than a stable OS platform plus an attestation module.

A reliably attestable system has to nail the entire boot chain: BIOS/firmware, bootloader, kernel/initramfs pairs, the `init` process, and the system configuration. Flip a single bit anywhere along the process, and your equipment is now a brick.

Getting all of this right requires deep system knowledge, plus a lot of hair-pulling adjustment, assuming if you still have hair left.

I think this part of Linux has been underrated. TPM is a powerful platform that is universally available, and Linux is the perfect OS to fully utilize it. The need for trust in digital realm will only increase. Who knows, it may even integrate with cryptocurrency or even social platforms. I really wish them a good luck.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#445
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The OS configuration and state (i.e. /etc/ and /var/) must be encrypted, and authenticated before they are used. The encryption key should be bound to the TPM device; i.e system data should be locked to a security concept belonging to the system, not the user." See Android; or, where you no longer own your device, and if the company decides, you no longer own your data or access to it.

https://0pointer.net/blog/authenticated-boot-and-disk-encryp... Yes, system data should be locked to the system with a TPM. That way your system can refuse to boot if it's been modified to steal your user secrets.

And if Linux$oft suddenly decides every user's system needs a backdoor or that every system mus automatically phone home with your entire browsing data, then, well, too bad, so sad of course!

Jesus.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#447

For all those people saying negative please see all the comments when RedHat was acquired by IBM (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18321884 - Linux is better now - Nothing bad

Surely Redhat has gone from being the defacto default Linux to relative obscurity?

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#448
post #43
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As per the announcement, we’ll be building this over the next months and sharing more information as this rolls out. Much of the fundamentals can be extracted from Lennart’s posts and the talks from All Systems Go! over the last years.

I'm sorry, you're "happy to answer questions" and this is your reply to such a softball? What kind of questions will you answer? Favorite color?

lol

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#449
post #38

Really excited to a company investing into immutable and cryptographically verifiable systems. Two questions really: 1. How will the company make money? (You have probably been asked that a million times :).) 2. Similar to the sibling: what are the first bits that you are going to work on. At any rate, super cool and very nice that you are based in EU/Germany/Berlin!

1. We are confident we have a very robust path to revenue. 2. Given the team, it should be quite obvious there will be a Linux-based OS involved. Our aims are global but we certainly look forward to playing an important role in the European tech landscape.

Appreciate the clarification, but this actually raises more questions than it answers.

A "robust path to revenue" plus a Linux-based OS and a strong emphasis on EU / German positioning immediately triggers some concern. We've seen this pattern before: wrap a commercially motivated control layer in the language of sovereignty, security, or European tech independence, and hope that policymakers, enterprises, and users don't look too closely at the tradeoffs.

Europe absolutely needs stronger participation in foundational tech, but that shouldn't mean recreating the same centralized trust and control models that already failed elsewhere, just with an EU flag on top. 'European sovereignty' is not inherently better if it still results in third-party gatekeepers deciding what hardware, kernels, or systems are "trusted."

Given Europe's history with regulation-heavy, vendor-driven solutions, it's fair to ask:

Who ultimately controls the trust roots?

Who decides policy when commercial or political pressure appears?

What happens when user interests diverge from business or state interests?

Linux succeeded precisely because it avoided these dynamics. Attestation mechanisms that are tightly coupled to revenue models and geopolitical branding risk undermining that success, regardless of whether the company is based in Silicon Valley or Berlin.

Hopefully this is genuinely about user-verifiable security and not another marketing-driven attempt to position control as sovereignty. Healthy skepticism seems warranted until the governance and trust model are made very explicit.

Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company

#450
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The OS configuration and state (i.e. /etc/ and /var/) must be encrypted, and authenticated before they are used. The encryption key should be bound to the TPM device; i.e system data should be locked to a security concept belonging to the system, not the user." See Android; or, where you no longer own your device, and if the company decides, you no longer own your data or access to it.

https://0pointer.net/blog/authenticated-boot-and-disk-encryp... Yes, system data should be locked to the system with a TPM. That way your system can refuse to boot if it's been modified to steal your user secrets.

... and it will also refuse to boot if it has been modified by the user.

Preventing this was the reason we had free software in the first place.

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