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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#441

Post by zajio1am »

axelthegerman wrote: post #133
zamadatix wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger problem is Framework doesn't actually offer as much in upgradeability as it sounds. While it can be compared to laptops without modular RAM, SSDs, or Wi-Fi cards, the real comparison is to laptops with modular ones of those for significantly less and suddenly the amount of upgradeability value drops significantly. Unofficially, many of the laptops I've had I've been able to upgrade even the screen…

I don't see why upgrading a motherboard to one with a newer generation CPU is not valuable. Or why going 16 to 32 GB RAM a few years after buying it first isn't. Yes full upgradability of each component would be pretty nice but now we have a desktop and factors like compactness and "premium feel" would be even worse

In my experience, when there is a time to replace the CPU/board by a newer one, the case if a notebook also accumulated enough wear and tear damage that make sense to replace it.

And when not, replacing whole notebook means i still have the old one, which i could use as a backup or sell or give to someone.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#442

Post by kec »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #372
kec wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could just buy a MacBook Air for like $900 (or one of the windows snapdragon machines, but it you care about avoiding Intel I’m assuming you want Linux and doubt the support is as good as asahi on Macs)

I guess that's the issue? I spent nearly $2800 on my current laptop, top of the line specs at the time. I'm just not the kind of person trying to compare down to A $1000 mid-level Mac. I need to use this thing professionally. In that lens, the config I played with (before ram prices surged) ended up around $2200 and it felt nice knowing I could upgrade the GPU down the line for $400 instead of pondering if I can last…

Sub a $2500 MacBook Pro in for air then for your needs. In several years if that new GPU is actually worth an upgrade it will almost certainly need more cooling or have higher power demands than current framework logic boards/chassis can handle.

Even on desktops where constraints are easier, piecemeal hardware upgrades of anything but storage and ram has never been worth it or done much to extend system lifespan.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#443

Post by swiftcoder »

goku12 wrote: post #330
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading t…

> You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time

Do you actually realise any savings doing that? Pretty sure I never have.

Typically by the time I get around to upgrading, they've changed both the CPU socket and the RAM, so I need a whole new motherboard. And I certainly don't trust a 5-year-old PSU to run a higher-watt load at that point. So most of the time all I'm reusing is the case and maybe a couple of auxiliary SSDs (which aren't a major part of the cost)...

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#444

Post by swiftcoder »

wqaatwt wrote: post #394
goku12 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a major clarification is in order here. I'm not talking about just the framework here. If anything, the problems with framework is the direct result of the absolutely stupid industry-wide product design culture and market tastes. You can see all the major open-ish hardware designers grappling with similar issues - pinephone, System76, Librem... I will explain later why it is so. But here is the point - we nee…

> soldered-on RAM modules That can have significant performance advantages, though. Which might be hard to overcome due to physics

Worth noting that even Framework's own desktop has soldered-on RAM, for exactly this reason

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#445

Post by swiftcoder »

Spooky23 wrote: post #308
makeitdouble wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port modu…

Screens are dramatically better than a few years ago and have been advancing if you care about and shop for the feature. Trackpads are slowly sucking less. Most people only see this in MacBook Pros, but the other manufacturers have excellent screens that are often hidden behind customization options and complex models/branding. I have a framework and love it, but it’s a computer made for a specific purpose that doesn…

> Trackpads are slowly sucking less

This is an oddity of the PC laptop market I have never understood - Mac trackpads from a decade ago are still better than a top-of-the-line PC trackpad from the current year.

The only thing Apple has done in that decade is make their trackpads slightly bigger (and made the click haptic rather than physical), so it feels like the PC folks should have caught up by now...

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#446

Post by zamadatix »

fphhotchips wrote: post #279
zamadatix wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most people" don't upgrade individual components of their desktop or spend thousands on their computer either, especially beyond the storage and RAM, so I'm not sure who the average person it's supposed to comfort that it's official vs not to do things as small as upgrade the screen out of cycle from upgrading the rest of the machine. Framework is, unfortunately, positioned in every way for exactly the type of perso…

This is the first time I've ever even heard of unofficial screen upgrades even being _possible_, and I'm at least two standard deviations from the mean on the "likes to tinker" scale. I can't even begin to think about how a laptop screen upgrade would go. Who's manufacturing them? How do I get just one? How do I make sure I don't spend a month waiting for shipping and get a fake? How do I make sure the housing is goi…

I don't think it's particularly common for techies to upgrade the screen, just that they are the only ones who would because... well, upgrading a screen usually isn't ever needed. The only reason I did is work was offloading some good laptops for low cost but they had sub-1080p screens. I took one with a broken screen for free and when I did the replacement I used a higher end model's replacement part.

I.e. the only different part is finding a laptop of the same screen size and eDP (embedded Display Port) generation to select from. The rest is the same. If you've already got a good screen it's usually not possible though as you're limited by the eDP generation's speed instead of the panel.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#447

Post by swiftcoder »

dagmx wrote: post #303
makeitdouble wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port modu…

The modules are just inset usb-c dongles. Handy that you can have them fully encased but there’s nothing really limiting any other laptop on this front. You just use an external dongle and have the same flexibility. Maybe some people really want the enclosed module so they have fewer things to carry, but that’s a pretty small advantage that I’m not sure many people will value. I could get something like this ( https:…

> You just use an external dongle and have the same flexibility

And with thunderbolt, you get to have one dongle-sized dock, that connects with one cable, and gives you the full gamut of ports. I really love being able to connect 1 cable when I get to my desk, and have multiple monitors, all peripherals, plus power cable instantly.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#448

Post by MarsIronPI »

makeitdouble wrote: post #256
MarsIronPI wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. My idea of a repairable laptop is the Thinkpads up until around 2015. And I absolutely agree that the port modules forces Framework to limit the number of ports to the point that I'd hesitate to purchase one because I'd be swapping ports all the time.

Have you ever tried dealing with Lenovo for parts or repairs ? My only experience with them was bleak and I never heard good stories on this front.

No, I've always gotten my Thinkpads and parts from eBay and other second-hand marketplaces.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#449

Post by MarsIronPI »

myself248 wrote: post #265
MarsIronPI wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. My idea of a repairable laptop is the Thinkpads up until around 2015. And I absolutely agree that the port modules forces Framework to limit the number of ports to the point that I'd hesitate to purchase one because I'd be swapping ports all the time.

As the owner of a Framework 13, you're exactly right. It only has 4 ports, at least one of which is pretty much always for charging, and let's face it you will always want a USB-A, so that leaves two. If you want to be ready for HDMI output or SD cards, that occupies them both, better hope you didn't want another USB-A or whatever. Oh, and there's a permanent headphone jack, for some reason. Compare to my last Thinkp…

> That said, it can do something super cool: Charge from either side.

Heh, that does sound nice. But for me it's not a problem, because my X230 charges from the rear.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#450

Post by Esophagus4 »

closewith wrote: post #434
johnnyanmac wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Reliable machines Maybe one day I'll have that. Meanwhile, - my first hp laptop had to be sent in twice in 2 years. Then by year 3 I just gave up the ghost (having side income helped) - 2nd Asus laptop was used and a decent discount, so I didn't complain too much. But it hit screen issues in 2 years. - then I got a razer blade. Honestly not bad (just really expensive), I simply had the lack of hindsight to realize 3…

On the other hand, we hand down our MacBooks in the family and our old 2018 MacBook Airs are still in daily use without any reliability issues AFAIK. Zero user repairability.

I had an old MacBook Air that I ran until it eventually lost battery function and new software just wouldn’t run well on such old hardware, and I stopped getting updates for the OS which meant apps slowly became incompatible.

Loved that machine. 10+ years of use from the best laptop I ever had.

I would’ve bought a new one when I eventually gave up on it, but the Apple of 2025 is worlds apart from the Apple of 2012.

Experiments with Touch Bars and software escape keys, butterfly keyboards that frankly just suck, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C ports requiring dongles everywhere…

I didn’t buy a new MacBook and migrated away from Apple instead.

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