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Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

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Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#441

Post by liampulles »

terribleperson wrote: post #19

In my experience, humans respond incredibly poorly to traffic lights being out. There's no sense or reason, just people deciding to drive across the intersection when they feel like it's okay. Presumably Waymo will make sure they can handle this situation in the future, but I'm not sure there's a really satisfactory solution. The way you're supposed to handle an intersection with no lights (treat it as a stop sign in…

Here in Johannesburg, downed traffic lights are a near daily occurrence and have been for years. It took a bit of getting used to but people are used to it now and generally obey the rules.

Actually there are times of day when I find it preferable that the traffic lights are down.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#442

Post by potato3732842 »

grayhatter wrote: post #414
potato3732842 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Failed pretty badly but no reported injuries or even accidents so not that badly. Just because no integer lives were wasted doesn't mean we can't sum the man hours and get a number greater than 1

Using that math it would be better if they were faster even if they killed somebody. That's a repulsive argument... Just because some argument is logically sound doesn't mean it's rational or reasonable. Also, when attempting that math, make sure you account for the buffer that everyone already builds into their life. No sense in double counting the extra 10m I'm angry in traffic, instead of angry sitting at home bec…

Your naive feel good attitude (and you're not alone in it, that crap permeates white collar western society) is exactly the problem and being all emotional about it only worsens your ability to reason about it.

Whenever we do something "good" at societal scale be it build ADA ramps or engage in international trade of consumer goods or in this case, have transportation infrastructure, there is always some tradeoff like this. We can either do the thing in a safer to life and limb manner, but that almost always has tradeoffs that make the thing less accessible or worse performing. We could have absurdly low maximum vehicle speeds, that would save lives, but the time and wealth (which are convertible to each other on some level) renders the tradeoff not worth it (to the public at large).

You can value a whole life loss higher than man hours. You can value a child more than the elderly. You can make all sorts of adjustments like that but they do not change the fundamental math of the problem.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#443

Post by JumpCrisscross »

andsoitis wrote: post #411
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not inferring internal processes…I'm guessing level of critical thinking Genuine question: how do these differ? Isn’t the level of critical thinking of Waymo’s employees internal to it? (What’s the mens rea analogue for a company?)

Are you asking what's the difference between critical thinking and an organizational process?

No, though now I’m reëvaluating the validity of the rest of your comment.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#444

Post by phatskat »

ssl-3 wrote: post #418
jrmg wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d bet you already have a mode that would’ve prevented what happened to the cat. From NYT reporting on the actual incident: A human driver, she believes, would have stopped and asked if everything was OK after seeing a concerned person kneeling in front of their car and peering underneath. “I didn’t know if I should reach out and hit one of the cameras or scream,” she said of the perilous moment. “I sort of froze, h…

I watched the video and read the article. (I wish I didn't; I love cats. I've known some wonderful bodega cats myself.) But I'll bet I already have a mode that makes me want to drive away from people I don't know who are acting weird around my car. I mean: I've got options. I can fight, flee, or hang out and investigate. But I'm human -- I'm going to make what ultimately turn out to be poor decisions sometimes. I wil…

That’s an interesting perspective. The way I’ve always approached it is that if someone is looking at my car weird, I should probably ask what’s up. I’ve honked over several cars to let them know their tire is flat, flagged down drivers in parking lots because some dumbass let a ton of nails fall off their work truck, etc. When it comes to cars, someone checking out my car in a “weird” way is a prompt to me to investigate, not flee.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#445

Post by phatskat »

ssl-3 wrote: post #386
amonroe805-2 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this not how four way stops work everywhere? I live in Kansas and have previously lived in Chicago, and I feel like both places follow this custom. Only thing that’s different is the laws are followed slightly more rigorously in low traffic areas, but the customary rules are definitely still in play.

That's how any relatively busy 4-way stop works in Ohio, too. The law says to do it one way (first to arrive, yield-to-the-right, wait for intersection to clear before entering). But in practice what happens is an unscripted ballet where other things happen instead, like: Like, 4 cars can turn right simultaneously, and this works fine. People know it's "wrong," but they also know it works . It's normal, expected, and…

> Other drivers stop the ballet immediately and get all timid and stuff

I can personally attest as to why I suddenly get weird when at a 4-way with a cop: I don’t remember exactly what the rules are, what’s “ok” as in not technically illegal (ie 2 cars crossing at the same time?), etc, and the panic of getting pulled over because of some minor detail makes me just wait however long I need to to get a clear turn. It’s silly, I know how it works, and when that authority figure is present I just want to avoid any and all interaction.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#446

Post by avbanks »

solumunus wrote: post #359
b112 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously things will continue to improve, so this is a point in time criticism. One of the biggest issues with current state of tech I see is, where these cars usually are. They're in cities, and most often in very dense ones, and ones in the south. These are effectively perfect conditions. From my perspective, I wonder how these cars will behave with ice on the road, with snow, or a typical Montreal Wednesday of "I…

It’s entirely possible we only ever get them in major cities where feasible, and that seems ok.

I'm starting to realize that this is most likely what will happen. They'll be available in select major cities, for certain areas, under certain weather conditions.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#447

Post by ssl-3 »

phatskat wrote: post #444
ssl-3 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the video and read the article. (I wish I didn't; I love cats. I've known some wonderful bodega cats myself.) But I'll bet I already have a mode that makes me want to drive away from people I don't know who are acting weird around my car. I mean: I've got options. I can fight, flee, or hang out and investigate. But I'm human -- I'm going to make what ultimately turn out to be poor decisions sometimes. I wil…

That’s an interesting perspective. The way I’ve always approached it is that if someone is looking at my car weird, I should probably ask what’s up. I’ve honked over several cars to let them know their tire is flat, flagged down drivers in parking lots because some dumbass let a ton of nails fall off their work truck, etc. When it comes to cars, someone checking out my car in a “weird” way is a prompt to me to invest…

It's a perspective, prefaced with a speech about human error. I might get it wrong -- so might you, yourself.

There remains some reason for the businesses and residents of the neighborhood in which Kit Kat was run over to have spent money to install and maintain things like security gates and iron pickets in front of the glass and entryways of their buildings.

When I find myself in such a neighborhood at night and am already intent upon leaving, is not my intention to stick around and maybe find out what that reason might be.

It is instead my intention to simply leave.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#448

Post by guywithahat »

cjsplat wrote: post #302
SoftTalker wrote: post #114

"San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie warned residents to stay off the roads unless they needed to travel." Sure, I go out and drive around on the roads for no reason all the time. I'll avoid doing that during the crisis.

So maybe the point was to consider a different store or route. Or look at the traffic and decide if you REALLY want to spend an hour or more in gridlock for whatever activity you are considering. And maybe wherever you wanted to go is closed because they don't have power either. It is a perfectly reasonable request. The fact that you acknowledge that is was a "crisis" implies pretty strongly that you understand that…

I don't think this was a street, I think SF just experiences rolling blackouts sometimes (unsure if this is due to their forest fire laws, the city buying the grid, or something else, although it seems silly that it's happening at all)

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#449

Post by grayhatter »

potato3732842 wrote: post #442
grayhatter wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using that math it would be better if they were faster even if they killed somebody. That's a repulsive argument... Just because some argument is logically sound doesn't mean it's rational or reasonable. Also, when attempting that math, make sure you account for the buffer that everyone already builds into their life. No sense in double counting the extra 10m I'm angry in traffic, instead of angry sitting at home bec…

Your naive feel good attitude (and you're not alone in it, that crap permeates white collar western society) is exactly the problem and being all emotional about it only worsens your ability to reason about it. Whenever we do something "good" at societal scale be it build ADA ramps or engage in international trade of consumer goods or in this case, have transportation infrastructure, there is always some tradeoff lik…

> Your naive feel good attitude (and you're not alone in it, that crap permeates white collar western society) is exactly the problem and being all emotional about it only worsens your ability to reason about it.

It's not a feel good attitude. I'm only objecting to your shallow take arguing that the commoditization of human life is reasonable. (i.e. touch grass) Similar to how you're concerned, exclusively, with the numbers you think you can count. That attitude of dehumanization has never resulted in good things things for society and humanity. That's the trade off I'm suggesting is important to consider when trying to make up numbers as you are. I'm not arguing that an absurdly low max speed is better. I'm arguing that it's small minded to try to count like that.

> You can value a whole life loss higher than man hours. You can value a child more than the elderly. You can make all sorts of adjustments like that but they do not change the fundamental math of the problem.

I wouldn't make any adjustments like that. The value or importance that exists with a human life, the case example, being a person that cares for others, and is cared about by others. Can't be reduced into a value that's translatable to man hours. I'd trade hours with some people for minutes with others. Just because time is something you can quantify, and you like that you can count it. Doesn't make it more better or important.

To be clear, I'm not saying your math is wrong, I'm saying you're wrong to believe it applies. (in such a simplistic manner.) You can use the math to decide how you're going to make tradeoffs given known input values; how much can my city pay for safety equipment to protect people. But you can't make up some adjacent math and say, this car's design is wrong because it didn't kill the correct number of people... err I mean, the correct number of man hours.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#450

Post by freejazz »

scoofy wrote: post #416
freejazz wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference is the Waymos failed in a way that prevented potential injury No one was injured this time but that's a huge assumption on your part

I mean, yes, if the Waymo's could safely pull over, or even know how to handle every emergency situation, I think that would be better. I'd say that's a big ask though. Training autonomous vehicles for blackouts, fires, earthquakes, tornadoes, hail storms, landslides, sinkholes, tsunamis, floods, or even just fog is not really feasible given that most humans won't even navigate the properly. I'll keep saying it: I'm…

That's a non-response response

>I honestly wish the human drivers blowing through intersections that night would have done the same. It's miracle no one was killed.

A bit deflective, huh?

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