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EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

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441–449 of 449 posts

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#441
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, which of Reform's policies are "lunacy"? Removing the 2 child benefit cap? Increasing NHS spending? Returning to New Labour levels of net immigration, being a country with borders? > That said I will find it very very funny if the Conservative party ends up last from that list. At least we agree on that. The Tories deserve to be confined to the dustbin of history.

Removing ILR for example? Also the small possibility of being a Russian asset of course.

> Removing ILR for example?

You mean replacing it with renewable five year visas that have reasonable salary thresholds and English language criteria, and which still allow the holder to apply for citizenship?

Why is that lunacy?

ILR is the immigration equivalent of "squatters' rights" - completely immoral IMO.

> the small possibility of being a Russian asset of course

The Left tried that with Trump too. It didn't work out for them, and I doubt this tactic will damage Farage either. It smacks of desperation IMO, just like all the silly childhood racism heresay.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#442
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only link between the Renaissance and Islam is this: When the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottomans, many Greek scholars fled to Italy bringing: • Greek manuscripts • Knowledge of ancient philosophy • Classical Greek language expertise This boosted the revival of classical learning. The Renaissance had far more to do with the Catholic Church than it had with Islam, and I’m curious to know who it was that told you…

The roots of the renaissance were established much, much earlier in Islamic Spain. It is essentially forgotten history (and largely systematically erased history, at that) Track down a copy of Bettany Hughes’ “When The Moors Ruled In Europe”. I think it is on Youtube. It is long but exceptionally clearly presented. Put simply, were it not for the Reconquista, what we understand as the renaissance would be very clearl…

Seems you've found a leftwing historian who chooses to endorse the violent Islamic conquest of Southern Europe, re-imagining it as a vibrant exchange of cultures, predicated on extreme timeline distortion.

The Renaissance is defined as follows:

> The Renaissance was a European cultural movement from the 14th to 17th centuries, marking a "rebirth" of classical Greek and Roman learning after the Middle Ages. It was a period of significant innovation in art, literature, science, and philosophy, with key developments like humanism. Notable figures include Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, and Raphael, and the movement began in Italy before spreading across Europe.

Islam did not even exist in the time of the Classical Greek and Roman periods.

Neither Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, and Raphael ever met Muslims directly, travelled to the Islamic world, or interacted with Islamic institutions.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#443
post #438
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The below are conservative estimates of the money raised by Reform policies: * £10bn+ per year - Adjusting how the Bank of England (BoE) treats reserves — e.g. stopping interest payments to commercial banks that receive money under quantitative easing (QE) * £11bn+ per year - Rolling back expensive "net zero" policies * £9bn+ per year - Alter eligibility for welfare * £25bn - Scrap HS2 * multiple billions - Reducing…

> * £11bn+ per year - Rolling back expensive "net zero" policies These in particular are fictional. That's an obsolete (due to tech improvements) estimate of the private sector costs. At this point, with the tech now available, almost everyone gets rich by doing net zero, almost nobody saves money by abandoning it. > * £9bn+ per year - Alter eligibility for welfare "Welfare" includes e.g. the child benefit cap. You c…

> At this point, with the tech now available, almost everyone gets rich by doing net zero

The likes of Dale Vince (Ecotricity), certainly get rich by doing net zero. Significant levies have been placed on taxpayers and consumers for years, with the money flowing into the companies of politically-connected individuals like Vince.

> the child benefit cap was itself introduced back when parents with too many kids were the scapegoat.

Parents that choose to have more children than they can afford are not "scapegoats." They are breaking the social contract.

The benefit cap was not retro-actively applied. It didn't put any existing children in poverty. It only applied to future births, to parents who were choosing to have children at the expense of taxpayers.

That's why the cap is a popular policy: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/20...

> Scrapping a one off payment to save money in the short term, at the cost of worsening long-term economic benefits by failing to improve national logistics [HS2].

The project cost has ballooned to the point where it will exceed the long term projected economic benefit (benefit-cost ratio of 0.9, as per a 2022 review). It is a white elephant.

> Do you mean asylum seekers?

No, I mean illegal migrants, as I said. Genuine Asylum seekers don't throw their documents overboard and illegally enter the country on a dinghy from France.

Take the war in Ukraine and and the post-war threat from the Taliban in Afghanistan for example - in both cases, the UK government made advance provision for documented, background-checked individuals, including the elderly, women and children (as you'd expect from genuine refugees). And the UK made safe routes available for those people. That's how the system should work.

Those who illegally enter the country via the Channel are 88-90% male, most of whom are fighting-age, and most of whom originate from countries that are not currently at war.

You still believe they're genuine asylum seekers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel_illegal_migran...

> that's a whole one billion per year you might save from not letting UK hotels rip you off, or two if you let these people work and support themselves.

If these people are allowed to economically benefit from illegally entering our country, it will send completely the wrong message to the third world countries they came from.

I don't want low-skilled/unskilled unvetted immigration that lowers our country's productivity, makes women and girls less safe, impacts public services and housing, divides our finite welfare spend and causes ghettoisation and (eventually) Balkanisation of my own country. Why would I want that?

> Brexit (and consider who owns Reform) has cost the economy an estimated 6-8% GDP by this point, per year, in lost growth opportunities — around £200bn/year.

I've heard various figures bandied around by continuity Remainers. They vary wildly, because at this point, nearly ten years later, it's impossible to scientifically compare a Brexit/non-Brexit scenario.

All we can know are the facts - Brexit gave us a huge opportunity to align our regulation with the precise nature of our economy, and an opportunity to avoid burdensome EU regulation (this is already happening in terms of the EU's hapless AI regulation). It's also an opportunity to avoid paying tens of billions of pounds annually into the EU's black hole unaccounted budget every year (consider the lifetime cost of that expense!)

The fact that the Europhillic Tory and Labour establishment failed to capitalise fully on Brexit is their fault - not the fault of the majority of voters who voted to leave the EU.

Luckily we have a party in 2029 who is unaligned with the Brussels and Strasbourg establishment, and who can make the bold decisions required to capitalise on our new freedoms and sovereignty. I relish this prospect.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#444
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while all this is happening, there are cases were peoples homes get search for comments on twitter. These are often in bad taste, but what tastes even worse is that the judiciary doesn't seem to understand proportionality anymore. Mean tweets carry higher sentences than raping someone, stern look at Germany here. A judiciary in such a sorry state, that has not adapted to a changed reality, cannot be permitted to…

'Mean tweets' is such an empty meaning. Come with examples. It is on paper very easy to break the law via speech. If I post something here about how I want to reward a murder on a certain politician (or want to do it myself), I can guarantee you the police would be involved. And rightfully so. Freedom of speech is about pre-moderation. It doesn't mean your actions do not have consequences. If you yell fire in a theat…

You don't know what you are talking about. Read up on freedom of speech, the threat of consequences violates the principle directly.

In my example the mean tweet was a insult towards the attacker, which netted her a higher sentence than the rapist got. These laws are neither desirable, nor sensible, nor just. What is actually empty is a definition about how speech gets prosecuted. It stems from older times and is abused for newer vanity, stupidity and autocratic ambitions.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones are unelected - the democratically elected heads of the member state governments? Or the democratically elected members of the EU parliament? Or the commissioners that are appointed by the democratically elected heads of the member state governments?

> are appointed by the democratically elected heads Appointed, so, not elected. Thanks for answering.

Same way as the executive in the westminster system is appointed.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#446
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones are unelected - the democratically elected heads of the member state governments? Or the democratically elected members of the EU parliament? Or the commissioners that are appointed by the democratically elected heads of the member state governments?

The commissioners?

Take Magnus Brunner, responsible for Internal Affairs and Migration. The Austrian Government, headed by Karl Nehammer at the time I believe, provided him.

The head of the EU, who was nominated by the Austrian Government (and the other 26 governments) and elected by the MEPs in parliament (who were directly elected) decided on his portfolio.

Compare this to the US system, where the head of the US executive is elected by electors who themselves are directly elected. That head then appoints whoever they want.

If you were to make the US reflect the EU, you would have

1) Senate nominates the president (one vote per state)

2) Congress votes for the president

3) Senate provides the people to be secretaries

4) President selects from that list and chooses which person gets head of State, head of Treasury, etc

This would give more power to the states and less to the federal level, which itself is something many in the US want. Doesn't make it undemocratic.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#447
post #443
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * £11bn+ per year - Rolling back expensive "net zero" policies These in particular are fictional. That's an obsolete (due to tech improvements) estimate of the private sector costs. At this point, with the tech now available, almost everyone gets rich by doing net zero, almost nobody saves money by abandoning it. > * £9bn+ per year - Alter eligibility for welfare "Welfare" includes e.g. the child benefit cap. You c…

> At this point, with the tech now available, almost everyone gets rich by doing net zero The likes of Dale Vince (Ecotricity), certainly get rich by doing net zero. Significant levies have been placed on taxpayers and consumers for years, with the money flowing into the companies of politically-connected individuals like Vince. > the child benefit cap was itself introduced back when parents with too many kids were t…

> The likes of Dale Vince (Ecotricity), certainly get rich by doing net zero. Significant levies have been placed on taxpayers and consumers for years, with the money flowing into the companies of politically-connected individuals like Vince.

  Unlike others in the environment and green energy sector, some of whom were highly critical of Labour’s roll-back, Vince was unperturbed. “We can get 100 per cent of renewable energy with no public money,”

  Vince explained that the real barriers to the green transition are not necessarily financial ones. Rather, the biggest hurdle to a fast, ubiquitous roll-out of green power is the UK’s tricky and long-winded planning system. One example he pointed to was the de facto ban on onshore wind, put in place by the former Conservative prime minister, David Cameron, in 2015.
The cheapest sources of electricity are now the renewables.

This has been true without any subsidies for some time, including in the UK.

But there are still good reasons for government subsidies, specifically to get private homes insulated:

  Another crucial national project for Labour will be their warm homes plan. Backed by £6.6bn over the next parliament, the party has said it will “upgrade five million homes to cut bills for families”. It has not yet provided details on how it plans to do so.
Which *drumroll* saves the occupants money while also keeping them warmer.

(Quotes from: https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/sustainability/energy...)

> Parents that choose to have more children than they can afford are not "scapegoats." They are breaking the social contract.

So, you're not in favour of ending the child benefit cap? Funny, I thought you were, from how you said it before. Guess that means you must regard the Reform-supported (but also actually implemented by Labour already) policy of "Removing the 2 child benefit cap" as an example of "lunacy".

After all, if someone "needs" any child benefit payments, even for the first child, then this by definition means they could not afford the child(ren); and if they don't "need" it then surely this is wasted money.

No, I think the demographic crisis in the west is because most people look at their finances and think "I cannot afford to have children". When children are below replacement rates and you restrict immigration, you have a ticking time bomb on your pension system, no matter how it's supposed to be funded.

> The project cost has ballooned to the point where it will exceed the long term projected economic benefit (benefit-cost ratio of 0.9, as per a 2022 review). It is a white elephant.

2/3rds of the cost has already been spent; cancelling it at this point only makes sense if the remaining cost exceeds the lifetime benefits, not if the total cost exceeds the lifetime benefits. That is why only bits of it have been cancelled so far, not the whole thing. If some future review ends up saying that the remaining cost isn't worth it, the government of the day will cancel it all by themselves, Reform wouldn't be special in this regard, just as they're not special for listing a bunch of things they don't really understand the details about in an un-audited campaign promise for an election they didn't win.

Also extra bonus irony points: HS2 received funding from the European Union's Connecting Europe Facility.

> No, I mean illegal migrants, as I said.

Then they don't cost anything. At least, not directly. Un-registered migrants working illegally could be said to "cost" the taxes they ought to be paying.

> Take the war in Ukraine and and the post-war threat from the Taliban in Afghanistan for example - in both cases, the UK government made advance provision for documented, background-checked individuals, including the elderly, women and children (as you'd expect from genuine refugees). And the UK made safe routes available for those people. That's how the system should work.

As per your own link, January to 21 April 2024, second biggest group on the small boats crossing the channel was Afghans, at 19.4%. Iran (lots of reasons to flee that place besides the occasional "it's not a war honest" exchange of fire with Israel), 11.3%. Sudan, in a civil war, 6.5%.

> most of whom are fighting-age,

A term so vague it encompasses basically anyone physically capable of making the trip.

Like, consider how many 12 year olds and 55 year olds could actually do this kind of journey in the first place, it's not going to be a high fraction of them.

Though to be blunt, it's also the case that very few of the total refugees get as far as the UK anyway. Back when the Syrian crisis was at it's peak, UK was losing its collective mind over a few thousand refugees from there when something like 4 million went to countries adjacent to Syria and a million went to Germany.

> most of whom originate from countries that are not currently at war.

And how many are gay fleeing homophobia, and how many are christians (or irreligious, or the wrong kind of muslim) fleeing from theocracy? Turkey's on the small boats list too: also not at war, but the authoritarian turn of the government put people at risk.

> If these people are allowed to economically benefit from illegally entering our country, it will send completely the wrong message to the third world countries they came from.

If these people are allowed to *pay taxes* and *cover their own rent*.

Look, if you don't want their money, fine. But what kind of message do you think you're sending with the current rule of "if you make it to the UK, they'll put a roof over your head, feed you, and not only do you not need to do any work to pay for this, they won't even allow you to do any work!"

(The other thing is that these people are in many cases being ripped off by people-traffickers; the "illegal" part of their entry is crossing the very busy channel on very inadequate vessels, which is illegal because it's so incredibly dangerous, a fact which kills many of these people who spent their life savings to do it).

> I've heard various figures bandied around by continuity Remainers. They vary wildly, because at this point, nearly ten years later, it's impossible to scientifically compare a Brexit/non-Brexit scenario.

If you don't want to believe financial experts' modelling, that's your call. You don't get to then claim the financial optimism of whoever you fancy instead, which is what you were doing.

> It's also an opportunity to avoid paying tens of billions of pounds annually into the EU's black hole unaccounted budget every year (consider the lifetime cost of that expense!)

Calling it "unaccounted" shows you don't understand accounting.

But then, I already knew that because of everything you've tried to claim in response to "The numbers don't add up […] the supposed cost-saving measures they're talking about mostly serve to demonstrate they don't know what the government is paying for anyway."

> The fact that the Europhillic Tory and Labour establishment failed to capitalise fully on Brexit is their fault - not the fault of the majority of voters who voted to leave the EU.

There's no kind way to say this, but you'll be better for taking it on-board: The fact you think the Tories, especially under Johnson, were "Europhillic", says you're so out of touch with reality that you don't understand how out of touch you are. Johnson literally got in trouble with his fellow journalists for making up lies about the EU, and never showed any sign of changing his ways, he and Farage are basically the reason the UK came to believe so many myths about the EU over the years.

I know that Leavers like to think that, e.g. May was a Remainer, but the fact is that nobody liked her Brexit, no matter if they voted leave or remain. Her failure was followed by the indicative votes where all possible 8 "solutions" were opposed by a majority of MPs; this was fairly representative of the country as a whole, because while a strict majority of voters wanted "a" Brexit, your preferred Brexit is one that other people who voted leave hated more than staying in the EU, and vice-versa.

(This is also why Reform are "only" on 28%, instead of getting the 52%-less-deaths who voted Leave: even your fellow travellers don't all agree on which Brexit, not even now).

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#448
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always advocated a proliferation of overlapping "states." Let them keep each other in check. Instead of having a tree with a king at the top and your local police station at the bottom, be a part of the governance for the river that you live near, for the city that surrounds you, for the grocery store in your neighborhood, for your local fire department, and let all of them have codified relationships with each…

So, the problem with all of these proposed replacement systems (such as IRV, for example) is that "democracy" is a meme. People, en masse, believe in these systems-as-written (for better or worse) - critically - even if that isn't how things actually work on the ground in the real world. So many people believe that, for example, the stuff written on the paper currency of the United States is legally binding. (It's ir…

> There are much better systems, and anyone can easily think up a few of them

Would you kindly? I really cannot come up with anything.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#449
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is more of a bureaucracy than a real autocracy. Lots of members with veto powers and the like. There is a lot wrong with the EU (the system). Opaque power structures, backroom deals, corruption. But I wouldn't call it an autocracy.

> Lots of members with veto powers and the like. Similar to the Political Bureau in former communist countries, but still an autocracy. > But I wouldn't call it an autocracy. It has most certainly started to walk and quack a lot like an autocratic duck, it wasn't the case 10 to 15 years ago, or not as visible, to say the least, but the pandemic and this recent war in Ukraine have changed that.

I'd go along with 'authoritarian' . But autocrat implies people holding on to power/ consolidating power outside the system.

The EC is still democratically chosen, albeit indirectly. There is no real sign (yet) of the stretching of term limits common for autocrats.

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