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Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

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Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#441

Post by amomww »

benjiro wrote: post #420
jansan wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan to shut down nuclear power plants was done under the premise of a stable supply of Russian gas. This supply abruptly stopped, but instead of using the remaining nuclear power plants to mitigate the supply shock (at that time nuclear power was even classified as sustainable by the EU btw.), he even accelerated the shutdown and sold it as inevitable. In my opinion this was the worst political decision of Germa…

Those 3 plants had been running on "deferred maintenance" as the plant shutdown was planned years ago. Keeping the plants open will have resulted in a ton of money to maintain the safety of the plants going forwards. This was one of the biggest factors in the shutdown. Even if the plants stayed open, multiple reactors needed maintenance (and thus shutdown of those rectors). Remember, they kept the open even longer th…

Meanwhile, Dutch coal and gas plants are running overtime for electricity exports. Obviously to compensate for the German and Belgian nuclear exits. (see https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/zone/NL/5y/monthly)

On top of that, NL govt is investing 10B EUR to prepare the construction of several new nuclear power plants, less than 300km from one of the abandoned German ones (Emsland). In conclusion the nuclear exits of BE and DE are some of the most stupid and hypocritical decisions in EU energy policy. Both countries will continue to depend on nuclear energy (from FR and NL). The only difference is that it is now produced <200km outside of their borders, in neighbouring countries.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#442

Post by kohlerm »

tirant wrote: post #424
kohlerm wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is on of the few politicians who follow his beliefs about what needs to be done, less so about what is popular. He also made sure Germany had enough gas. He had nothing todo with the pushback of nuclear energy (that was the CDU/Merkel). Nuclear energy is not cheap.

All politicians follow their beliefs. They just become more problematic the more interventionist they are. And Habeck was extremely interventionist. On top of that he used his position of power to go against private citizens under the excuse of free speech. He filed 805 criminal complaints, in some situations just for being called an idiot online. Nuclear energy pushback in DE was a result of the fear caused by Chern…

>All politicians follow their beliefs No they don't they, a lot them will do whatever is needed (change their minds at will) to stay in power. If you ever listened to Habeck, there are simple rational arguments why it did not makes sense to continue running the nuclear plants for longer. There was anyway no easy affordable way to just let them run for many years (contracts). At the end nuclear was only contributing 1.5% to the overall energy production.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#443

Post by torginus »

numlock86 wrote: post #238

> Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels A more fitting title would be "Germany's citizens outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels". The current phrasing makes it sound like it's somehow a thing done by the government, which is not the case. If anything the government is one of the many forces slowing down this progress. And yes, I am aware of things like grid security and stability…

Electricity is so expensive in Germany, that these things pay for themselves in a couple of years - you are theoretically right, but as things are, these make financial sense.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#444

Post by Slartie »

owenversteeg wrote: post #418

There's a funny comment downthread that says "It's like the backyard furnaces during the Great Leap Forward." Everyone replying disagrees, but I think it's a perfect analogy: just like the backyard furnaces, these small-scale installations are inefficient, provide a negligible portion of total energy needs (<1% of total energy needs if everyone in Germany did it, from TFA), look ugly and - this is the most important…

Actually, it is pretty common for homeowners to first install a balcony solar power plant and eventually "upgrading" to a full-scale solar power installation on the roof. The first is very easy and cheap to do and can be done on a weekend, the latter is costly, requires dealing with bureaucracy and partially-sleazy system sellers, and thus requires overcoming way more substantial hurdles, for which one must muster the motivation first.

Balcony solar power plants are sort of a gateway drug into actual, practical participation in the renewable energy sector. They are easy to install, cheap, have a clear and fast way to profitability, and provide significant gamification value (people who buy these kits tend to start with constantly monitoring their energy generation and usage in apps afterwards). That "ice breaker" effect should not be underestimated. It can pave the way to way more substantial actions (or to the acceptance of actions taken by others) that people wouldn't have considered otherwise simply due to inertia of the status quo.

> look ugly

That is YOUR taste. I consider most balconies with solar panels to look futuristic and cool. Garden houses with solar panels on the roof also look way cooler and more modern than without them.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#445

Post by [deleted] »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #351
jagermo wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100 % agree. They somehow figured out early that its better to sell to the others and stay renewable themselves.

Yes, but you have to somehow insinuate that this is a bad thing without ever clearly stating a thesis of why it's a bad thing. Otherwise people might think investing in green energy, EVs and heat pumps is a good idea with good return on investment and positive externalities and should be done by any competent government.

[deleted]

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#446

Post by philipallstar »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #351
jagermo wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100 % agree. They somehow figured out early that its better to sell to the others and stay renewable themselves.

Yes, but you have to somehow insinuate that this is a bad thing without ever clearly stating a thesis of why it's a bad thing. Otherwise people might think investing in green energy, EVs and heat pumps is a good idea with good return on investment and positive externalities and should be done by any competent government.

Any competent government with infinite money they can just dig out of the ground, and dump into the sky via its customers, a small, mostly-homogenous law-abiding population and military cover, at least until recently, mostly provided by the US taxpayer.

Easy.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#447

Post by akoboldfrying »

watwut wrote: post #320
akoboldfrying wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that GP's take is broadly wrong, but there is a sense in which it does introduce a single point of failure: the sun. If everyone has solar panels, an overcast day zaps an entire city/region.

They have normal grid too and also batteries exist. Also, these houses normally exist during the night and during the winter when days are short. Overcast day zapping whole region is made up issue here.

All this really only shows that the single point of failure fails quite regularly, to varying degrees.

It reminds us that widespread personal solar panel deployment reduces the total amount of centrally generated energy required, but doesn't even make a dent in the max capacity, which is much more important in terms of deciding infrastructure investment.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#448

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

FredPret wrote: post #437
Archelaos wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear technology is a dead end. Renewables and saving energy is the future. Nuclear and fossil are in the same boat. They are both more risky and have huge hidden costs that the general public and future generations will have to bear. The only good reason to go nuclear these days is if you want the bomb, like Iran. Interestingly, it is the same people who supported fossil in the past who are still promoting nuclear…

Renewables have huge hidden costs as well. Solar panels and windmills are low density sources - we need a LOT of them to get the job done, and even then you still need base load somehow. That means a huge amount of extra powerlines and future landfill of defunct panels. Not to mention the very sturdy windmill foundations scattered around the landscape. Say what you will about nuclear, but all of its negatives are con…

solar panels actually decrease load on power lines. every house with solar panels on it reduces the amount of power the grid needs to bring to that house

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#449

Post by junaru »

empiricus wrote: post #433
GordonS wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On drones: there is no evidence of that. The supposed "drone ship" that was siezed by France turned out to be crewed by Chinese and had no drones or weapons on board. A Croatian citizen were arrested regarding the drone near Frankfurt airport. Three Germans were arrested regarding the drones near Oslo. Consider what Russia could possibly have to gain by randomly flying drones near civilian airports... nothing? Consid…

Well, for some context, most new NATO members were previously under communism regimes and soviet influence in the past. After getting their freedom, the next step was to make sure they are safe from Russia.

Thats why we are perfect soil for this FUD.

Senior population remembers soviet union with all its warts (rightfully so) but fail to account the structures that governed the union and whole topdown integration no longer exists there.

Meanwhile anyone born in the last 40 years was raised with inferiority complex due to being economically behind and treat every word from west as gospel.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#450

Post by JamisonM »

V__ wrote: post #415
jansan wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan to shut down nuclear power plants was done under the premise of a stable supply of Russian gas. This supply abruptly stopped, but instead of using the remaining nuclear power plants to mitigate the supply shock (at that time nuclear power was even classified as sustainable by the EU btw.), he even accelerated the shutdown and sold it as inevitable. In my opinion this was the worst political decision of Germa…

> the worst political decision of German politics since WW2 Except the shutdown had no negative effect. There was no supply shock and prices keep trending down since (Though that of course doesn't mean because of). Let's keep it real. I can probably name worse German political decisions from this week.

"Except the shutdown had no negative effect."

Three things here:

* Didn't the diversion of natural gas to electricity generation end some German industrial production completely?

* Are there not large electricity subsidies in place via subsidies for US imported LNG?

* Isn't the alternate reality where there is a surplus of electricity in German due to nuclear power a better world where Germany has more opportunity? (the AI datacentre boom is built on excess electricity, isn't it?)

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