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Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

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Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#441

Post by DC-3 »

tpm wrote: post #323
lbreakjai wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's especially objectionable and condescending since the author of the blog comes from a democratic country selling weapons to a genocidal state, as are most of us here.

Iran is much less democratic than the US and the rest of the Western world. 158th from 179 entries here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-Dem_Democracy_Indices

Yes, that's the point they're making. Arguably US citizens are more complicit in the crimes of Israel than Iranians are in the crimes of Russia since Americans have more capacity to choice their leadership.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#442

Post by lelanthran »

ivell wrote: post #268
Keirmot wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanctions have a theoretical basis behind them. In the Western Political Philosophical Canon, leaders and elites are expected to strive for the Common Good. From that perspective, sanctions aren’t meant as “torture for fun,” (as you put it) but as a way of creating pressure so governments change their behavior without having to resort to war. They’re basically a tool to raise the cost of bad actions and make it more…

The leadership of countries under sanctions rarely change their behavior due to sanctions. However the effect on the population of the countries is that they turn against the countries applying the sanctions. It becomes easier for the leaders to sell the sanctions to their populace as the enemy action. If the West is expecting any revolution due to sanctions, I have not seen it. However, sanctions do have a symbolic…

> The leadership of countries under sanctions rarely change their behavior due to sanctions. However the effect on the population of the countries is that they turn against the countries applying the sanctions. It becomes easier for the leaders to sell the sanctions to their populace as the enemy action.

Counterpoint: South Africa.

> If the West is expecting any revolution due to sanctions, I have not seen it.

You have now.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#443

Post by vovavili »

chabska wrote: post #221
adastra22 wrote: post #20

OP, some context from the other side might be helpful. Yes, there are fines for American companies if they do business with Iranians. That's how sanctions work as I'm sure you're aware. But the story doesn't stop there. If an American finds out they are transacting with a sanctioned individual, or citizens of a sanctioned country like Iran or North Korea, the stakes go up: $1M USD fine and up to 20 years in federal p…

> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…

>with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government

The justification is reduced financial capacity for war and similar atrocities.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#444

Post by H8crilA »

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #436
adastra22 wrote: post #20

OP, some context from the other side might be helpful. Yes, there are fines for American companies if they do business with Iranians. That's how sanctions work as I'm sure you're aware. But the story doesn't stop there. If an American finds out they are transacting with a sanctioned individual, or citizens of a sanctioned country like Iran or North Korea, the stakes go up: $1M USD fine and up to 20 years in federal p…

I think sanctions are pointless. Just do business with Iran as usual, but use the money earned to take out the ayatollah and his revolutionary guard. Or give that money to Israel to do the job.

Taking out a regime is easy. Every occupation of Afghanistan in history has been prematurely terminated mere moments before achieving its goal :(

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#445

Post by pirates »

Xelbair wrote: post #390
kelnos wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of available US presidential, House, and Senate candidates, there is essentially no realistic electoral outcome where the people put into power will lift Iranian sanctions. Representative democracy doesn't mean that every possible policy could be enacted by some realistic configuration of elected representatives, even if any particular policy is supported by a majority of the electorate.

>Representative democracy doesn't mean that every possible policy could be enacted by some realistic configuration of elected representatives, even if any particular policy is supported by a majority of the electorate. that is only true if you flatten your system to two parties.

But you know that in this case it’s true since the discussion is about the US in particular. So this “enlightened” take is really just snide time wasting.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#446

Post by olelele »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #111
reeredfdfdf wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the ruling elites and military still enjoy decent quality of life, it´s mostly the ordinary people who suffer. In case of Russia that´s okay since large parts of the population genuinely support the war, but I´m not so sure about Iran and Cuba, where most are not supportive of their governments anyway.

The point isn't necessarily to make leadership suffer, but rather to prevent suffering of everyone who might be threatened by a strong Cuba/Iran/North Korea

In case of Cuba I think the sanctions regime is in part motivated by vindictiveness and in part to make an example for other nations in the americas of what happens when you evade US hegemony..

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#447

Post by athrowaway3z »

lazide wrote: post #331
Seattle3503 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanctions diminish a counties capacity to wage war.

Cite? Russia and Iran seem to not be giving too much of a shit. NK became a nuclear power under sanctions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Ac...

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#448

Post by constantcrying »

dvdkon wrote: post #349
constantcrying wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling people to throw their lives away to provoke a civil war is one of the nastiest rhetorical tricks you hear when people talk about oppressive regimes. In basically every case a bad government is preferable to the destruction, chaos and death a civil war brings. "Just overthrow your government" is ridiculous plea.

It worked pretty well for most east bloc countries. Granted, they had to wait until the Soviet Union was weak to break away, but couldn't sanctions be one of the tools to get there faster?

>It worked pretty well for most east bloc countries.

And for some it worked out pretty badly. Hungarians rebeled against communism, but that rebellion was put down brutally.

You are correct that towards the end of the Soviet Union many of the client states and Russia itself had popular uprisings which succeeded, but that that point the Communist Government was already failing.

My point is not that no popular uprising has ever worked or that outside pressure can not force the end of some regime, but that telling people that they need to take up arms against their government is an insane proposition.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#449

Post by nemomarx »

nashashmi wrote: post #319
chabska wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…

> with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Is this really a US endeavor by policy?

It's the occasionally given justification for embargos on Cuba, Sanctions on North Korea, etc. Whether you believe it's the real reason is a different question.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#450

Post by sjapkee »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #277
ivell wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The leadership of countries under sanctions rarely change their behavior due to sanctions. However the effect on the population of the countries is that they turn against the countries applying the sanctions. It becomes easier for the leaders to sell the sanctions to their populace as the enemy action. If the West is expecting any revolution due to sanctions, I have not seen it. However, sanctions do have a symbolic…

Sanctions diminish a counties capacity to wage war.

No. Countries just will take money from their people. It diminishes people capacity to survive.
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