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I ditched Docker for Podman

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Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#441

Post by roozbeh18 »

sroerick wrote: post #427
ttul wrote: post #415

Back in 2001/2002, I was charged with building a WiFi hotspot box. I was a fan of OpenBSD and wanted to slim down our deployment, which was running on Python, to avoid having to copy a ton of unnecessary files to the destination systems. I also wanted to avoid dependency-hell. Naturally, I turned to `chroot` and the jails concept. My deployment code worked by running the software outside of the jail environment and m…

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

Someone wrote a PHP7 script to generate some of our daily reports a while back that nobody wants to touch. Docker happily runs the PHP7 code in the container and generates the reports on any system. its portable, and it doesnt require upkeep.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#442

Post by [deleted] »

ttul wrote: post #415

Back in 2001/2002, I was charged with building a WiFi hotspot box. I was a fan of OpenBSD and wanted to slim down our deployment, which was running on Python, to avoid having to copy a ton of unnecessary files to the destination systems. I also wanted to avoid dependency-hell. Naturally, I turned to `chroot` and the jails concept. My deployment code worked by running the software outside of the jail environment and m…

[deleted]

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#443

Post by citizenpaul »

csours wrote: post #171
nickjj wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the plus side, any company I work for doesn't have to worry about licences. Win win! Was this a deal breaker for any company? I ask because the Docker Desktop paid license requirement is quite reasonable. If you have less than 250 employees and make less than $10 million in annual revenue it's free. If you have a dev team of 10 people and are extremely profitable to where you need licenses you'd end up paying $9…

Companies aren't monoliths, they're made of teams. Big companies are made of teams of teams. The little teams don't really get to make purchasing decisions. If there's a free alternative, little teams just have to suck it up and try to make it work. --- Also consider that many of these expenses are born by the 'cost center' side of the house, that is, the people who don't make money for the company. If you work in a…

It always amazes me how hostile most large companies are to paying for developer tools that have a trivial cost. Then they will approve the budget for some yay quartly profit party no one cares about that cost $100k for the venue rental alone.

I do understand that this mostly is because management wants staff to be replaceable and disposable having specialty tools suggests that a person can be unique.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#444

Post by worik »

nickjj wrote: post #67
akerl_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn’t generally the cost, it’s the complexity. You end up having to track who has it installed. Hired 5 more people this week? How many of them will want docker desktop? Oh, we’ve maxed the licenses we bought? Time to re-open the procurement process and amend the purchase order.

A large company who is buying licenses for tools has to deal with this for many different things. Docker is not unique here. An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows and automated ways to keep tabs on who has what and who needs what. They may also be under various compliance requirements that expect due diligence to happen every quarter to make sure everything is legit from a licen…

Not just large companies

OT because not docker

In the realm of artistic software (thinking Alberton Live and Adobe suites) licensing hell is a real thing. In my recent experience it sorts the amateurs from the pros, in favour of amateurs

The time spent learning the closed system includes hours and dollars wrestling licenses. Pain++. Not just the unaffordable price, but time that could be spent creating

But for an aspiring professional it is the cost of entry. These tools must be mastered (if not paid for, ripping is common) as they have become a key part of the mandated tool chains, to the point of enshittification

The amateur is able to just get on with it, and produce what they want when they want with a dizzying array of possible tools

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#445

Post by janjongboom »

Shog9 wrote: post #430
sroerick wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

Reproducibility? No. Not having to regularly rebuild the whole dev environment because I need to work on one particular Python app once a quarter and its build chain reliably breaks other stuff? Priceless.

This false sense of reproducability is why I funded https://docs.stablebuild.com/ some years ago. It lets you pin stuff in dockerfiles that are normally unpinnable like OS package repos, docker hub tags and random files on the internet. So you can go back to a project a year from now and actually get the same container back again.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#446

Post by [deleted] »

wyoung2 wrote: post #387
vbezhenar wrote: post #70

I did numerous attempts to switch from docker to podman. Latest one worked, and so far I didn't feel the need to get back to docker. There was only one issue that I had: huge uid didn't work in podman (like 1000000 I think), but I fixed the dockerfile and rest worked fine for me. podman-compose does not work well in my experience, but I don't use it anymore.

> huge uid didn't work in podman (like 1000000 I think) You're running into the `/etc/sub[ug]id` defaults. The old default was to start your normal user at 100000 + 64k additional sub-IDs per user, but that changed recently when people at megacorps with hundreds of thousands of employees defined in LDAP and similar ran into ID conflict. Sub-IDs now start at 2^19 on RHEL10 for this reason.

[deleted]

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#447

Post by bolobo »

sroerick wrote: post #427
ttul wrote: post #415

Back in 2001/2002, I was charged with building a WiFi hotspot box. I was a fan of OpenBSD and wanted to slim down our deployment, which was running on Python, to avoid having to copy a ton of unnecessary files to the destination systems. I also wanted to avoid dependency-hell. Naturally, I turned to `chroot` and the jails concept. My deployment code worked by running the software outside of the jail environment and m…

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

> I genuinely don't understand what docker brings to the table. I mean, I get the value prop. But it's really not that hard to set up http on vanilla Ubuntu (or God forbid, OpenBSD) and not really have issues.

For me, as an ex-ops, the value proposition is to be able to package a complex stack made of one or more db, several services and tools (ours and external), + describe the interface of these services with the system in a standard way (env vars + mounts points).

It massively simplify the onboarding experience, make updating the stack trivial, and also allow devs, ci and prod to run the same version of all the libraries and services.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#449

Post by worik »

reaperducer wrote: post #248
stronglikedan wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use Podman and don't worry about licenses, since it's just as good but sooo much easier.

Some day I hope to work for a company small enough that I can "just" use any software I feel like for whatever reasons I want. But I have to feed my family.

> I can "just" use any software I feel like for whatever reasons I want.

What could possibly go wrong?

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#450

Post by wiether »

nickjj wrote: post #46
t43562 wrote: post #21

To provide 1 contrary opinion to all the others saying they have a problem: Podman rocks for me! I find docker hard to use and full of pitfalls and podman isn't any worse. On the plus side, any company I work for doesn't have to worry about licences. Win win!

> On the plus side, any company I work for doesn't have to worry about licences. Win win! Was this a deal breaker for any company? I ask because the Docker Desktop paid license requirement is quite reasonable. If you have less than 250 employees and make less than $10 million in annual revenue it's free. If you have a dev team of 10 people and are extremely profitable to where you need licenses you'd end up paying $9…

> If you have a dev team of 10 people and are extremely profitable to where you need licenses you'd end up paying $9 a year per developer for the license.

It doesn't quite change your argument, but where have you seen $9/year/dev?

The only way I see a $9 figure is the $9/month for Docker Pro with a yearly sub, so it's 12*$9=$108/year/dev or $1080/year for your 10 devs team.

Also it should be noted that Docker Pro is intended for individual professionals, so you don't have collaboration features on private repos and you have to manage each licence individually, which, even for only 10 licences, implies a big overhead.

If you want to work as a team you need to take the Docker Team licence, at $15/month/dev on a yearly sub, so now you are at $1800/year for your 10 devs team.

Twenty times more than your initial figure of $90/year. Still, $1800 is not that much in the grand scheme of things, but then you still have to add a usual Atlassian sub, an Office365/GWorkspace sub, an AI sub... You can end-up paying +$200/month/dev just in software licences, without counting the overhead of managing them.

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