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Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

josefprusa.com

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Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#441

Post by silverliver »

CyLith wrote: post #187
the__alchemist wrote: post #26

This is a microcosm of what's happening all over the physical device world, and manufacturing: Everyone (Except Prusa; thank you for your service!) outside of China is forgetting and losing capabilities. My Raise3D printer is high quality and reliable. It's a nice piece of hardware. The PCBs I order from JLC are high-quality, built-to-specs, and whenever there's an error, it's a design fault. They are cheap, and arri…

> Everyone ... outside of China is forgetting and losing capabilities. To me this is the fundamental problem with the notion of intellectual property and its protection: so much of it is trade secret and undocumented (let's be real, we disclose as little in patents as we can get away with). Companies come and go, and in the process, institutional knowledge of how to do things is lost because there is no incentive to…

This is why open source software is stronger than ever despite its shortcomings and efforts of large orgs to kill it. Rather than bending backwards and treating it like property (as originally demanded by Bill Gates in his open letter decades ago, we did the right thing and treated it like knowledge (e.g. like mathematics).

Intellectual property was a horrible flawed idea that the world will continue to pay for dearly for decades after it is finally discarded.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#442

Post by sarchertech »

hyperbovine wrote: post #435
sarchertech wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> want so much to like Prusa ... but the Bambu printer at my local makerspace costs half as much and is better in every way than the MK3S+ sitting in my basement. I'm fully aware that this is the result of shrewdness on the part of the Chinese, plus incompetence in the West, and it's so frustrating. Then maybe don’t phrase it like this. And also acknowledge that it’s a nonsense comparison. People that don’t know Prus…

Let me clarify. I paid $325 for a used MK3S+ and that seems to be the going rate. The printers at the Makerspace are A1 and A1 minis. The former cost $399 or less on sale, and the latter definitely under $300 always. So yes, the comparison seems fair.

1. You said the Bambu costs half as much when it actually costs more. $399 vs $325

2. I wouldn’t pay more than $200 for a MK3S+ because it’s now 4 generations out of date. Used markets are often overpriced for rapidly advancing technology because most sellers are basing their pricing on what they paid originally not what the item is worth today.

Many times it’s just not worth the hassle for people to sell for what they are actually going to get, so you see a ton of overpriced items just sitting there not selling.

But also I do care about ease of use. I imagine that someone who wants to run their printer for many thousands of hours or who is going to do a lot of tinkering might pay more for a used Prusa than I would.

If we’re talking new comparable printers out today. The Core One and the X1C. They have very similar print quality. The Prusa is $50 cheaper, and the Prusa has many additional benefits.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#443

Post by nickpinkston »

fidotron wrote: post #254
nickpinkston wrote: post #197

Having spent my whole career in the manufacturing tech world after starting in the maker world (I started HackPgh), I love Open Hardware, but find it not a great fit beyond boards (Arduino, RPi, etc.). I think the core issue is one of how expensive / complex the iteration cycle is, with even sophisticated circuit boards being possible to make on a hobbyist budget, but sophisticated 3D printers and other complex machi…

> Add to this that even the extremely well funded hardware startups: MakerBot, FormLabs, DesktopMetal, OnShape, etc. have all either totally failed to create better tech at all, or have been quickly commodified without a major impact to the hardware development process. They simply succumb to the tendency to rest on their laurels the moment they start making money, and then especially stop investing in software, whic…

Re: "succumb to the tendency to rest on their laurels the moment they start making money"

I don't find that true of any of the companies I mentioned at least. They all were/are going hard on development, but the tech problems were just really hard compared to funding, and they never made any major breakthroughs on capability.

Chinese companies have been great at going from 1 to n in the 3D printing space with a lot of cost, reliability, etc. refinements, but I haven't seen a transformative technology from them yet either (re: comment on ~1995 SolidWorks being the last one).

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#444

Post by andrewmcwatters »

gr4vityWall wrote: post #410
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, in the States, you can own a small business, come up with a good idea, and someone can just copy it and compete against you regardless if it's copyright infringement or not. And that's in the context of a domestic legal issue. You have to be able to defend your intellectual property, and that's expensive, which is the parent comment's point. I mean, imagine you, AlexandrB, come up with some good idea, sta…

> Should... we just not care about that? ... Yes.

Speaking from the half of the crowd that actually produces intellectual property, no.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#445

Post by yellow1389745 »

superxpro12 wrote: post #88
sitkack wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of Open Source needs a sunlit patent pool, a searchable database of documented inventions AND all of the follow on ideas around them. This could provide a way to force patent examiners to do their jobs and allow the Open Source Community to crowd source invention bombing the proprietary world. How does one lookup these patents? They need more exposure so they can be refuted.

I work in a different industry, power tools. Somehow the USPTO allowed Milwaukee to patent a circ saw that spins at a certain rpm... The things that get through the patent office are braindead. Patents are just weaponized legal minefields now. They've totally lost their original intent.

I recall a container of multimeters seized at the border because they were the wrong color of yellow...

I may have bought an American meter once, but it was a fluke. Never again.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#446

Post by fidotron »

nickpinkston wrote: post #443
fidotron wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Add to this that even the extremely well funded hardware startups: MakerBot, FormLabs, DesktopMetal, OnShape, etc. have all either totally failed to create better tech at all, or have been quickly commodified without a major impact to the hardware development process. They simply succumb to the tendency to rest on their laurels the moment they start making money, and then especially stop investing in software, whic…

Re: "succumb to the tendency to rest on their laurels the moment they start making money" I don't find that true of any of the companies I mentioned at least. They all were/are going hard on development, but the tech problems were just really hard compared to funding, and they never made any major breakthroughs on capability. Chinese companies have been great at going from 1 to n in the 3D printing space with a lot o…

> but I haven't seen a transformative technology from them yet either

The fact you would think this is the core of what I mean. Cultures in countries which have active and powerful manufacturing sectors view the increase in reliability the Chinese have achieved in 3D printing to be transformative. In the west we're way too focused on perpetual paradigm shifts, but never invest the effort in exploiting the developed technology to the fullest potential, and so sit around wondering why we are losing wealth generating capacity to the east.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#447

Post by tmcdos »

jandrese wrote: post #200
izacus wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more I look into it, the more I'm convinced that current state of IP law is the rot at the core of western worlds technological stagnation. The rise of monopolistic megacorps, lack of independent innovation and enshittifcation can pretty much be traced back to the wide free market violating reach of current IP law. This article just highlights it and shows how China weaponized this weakness of the west and is suc…

It's telling that before the Patent system the solution was secretive guilds that jealously (sometimes lethally) guarded their secrets to avoid competition. This was obviously terrible since it greatly slowed down innovation. I'm not sure what the correct solution is to this problem. We want to avoid anything that causes a return of the guild system, but at the same time we don't want small inventors steamrolled by l…

And what is wrong with competition? If someone else makes a product or service better than you - why should you get the benefits and not him/her? The correct solution is to freely share all knowledge (IP). Open source is not perfect but it is a step in the right direction. P2P and torrents is another step in the right direction.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#448

Post by cassianoleal »

josefprusa wrote: post #43

Hi! Josef here! I was just recently sharing a little update on socials, here is a copy: Since I posted my “OHW is dead” article, you’ve been asking me about “that patent”. I didn’t want you to miss the forest (thousands of filings since 2020) just because of one tree. But let’s take a look now. In this case: the MMU multiplexer (we open sourced it 9 years ago). Anycubic (another IDG Capital-backed company) used the t…

In a conversation on another community, some people are voicing opinions that open hardware is indeed not dead, and that your post reeks as hubris and self-aggrandisement (not their literal words, I'm paraphrasing).

Sovol and Qidi have been cited as counter-examples.

What's your take on this?

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#449

Post by vladfr »

cassianoleal wrote: post #448
josefprusa wrote: post #43

Hi! Josef here! I was just recently sharing a little update on socials, here is a copy: Since I posted my “OHW is dead” article, you’ve been asking me about “that patent”. I didn’t want you to miss the forest (thousands of filings since 2020) just because of one tree. But let’s take a look now. In this case: the MMU multiplexer (we open sourced it 9 years ago). Anycubic (another IDG Capital-backed company) used the t…

In a conversation on another community, some people are voicing opinions that open hardware is indeed not dead, and that your post reeks as hubris and self-aggrandisement (not their literal words, I'm paraphrasing). Sovol and Qidi have been cited as counter-examples. What's your take on this?

Curious to see Josef answer this one.

Sovol has been flatout copying Prusa part for part for a long time now. Qidi seems to be doing the same with Bambu. Time will tell, but their oss contributions are not at the same level.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#450

Post by MegaDeKay »

capyba wrote: post #434
MegaDeKay wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought my Voron Trident as a kit (from a Chinese company) and it is wonderful. As you say, there is an almost complete dependence on components made in China, but at least I can swap out / fix / upgrade parts as much as I like. I've also been able to make use of the schematics on the controller boards to troubleshoot issues myself and other people were having. Very happy I went this route vs Bambu. This printer is…

I was thinking the same but got a prusa kit instead. Have you use or built a prusa before - how do they compare? At some point I’ll want two printers and was thinking a voron or similar would be perfect because I could print parts for it now.

I've never had a Prusa but when I was doing my research before buying the printer a couple years ago, the bang for the buck wasn't even close. The Prusa's in my price range were all bed slingers, so slower and not great candidates for enclosed printing needed for filaments like ABS and ASA.

On the flip side, a Prusa is basically plug in and go whereas the Voron needs a lot of setup and calibration to get good prints out of it. That's all part of the experience, so that if something goes south with print quality down the road, you know where to start looking.

Perhaps the newest Prusa has closed the gap. IDK. Haven't followed the new designs since buying mine. But I have never regretted my purchase.

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