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Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

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Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#441

Post by Frost1x »

xcrunner529 wrote: post #430
gblargg wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s not a direct democracy. It’s a rep democracy or a republic. Idk why you fools still think this is some gotcha. It just makes you look silly. The quote works just as well with republic it.

Traditionally I agree with you (and have raised the point many times), but lately I’m not so sure if it’s a representative democracy at all. I suppose the very corrupt and wealthy are a class being represented, but a representative democracy is in theory supposed to provide representative coverage for all. That seems to be a vanishing case.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#442

Post by xcrunner529 »

Frost1x wrote: post #441
xcrunner529 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a direct democracy. It’s a rep democracy or a republic. Idk why you fools still think this is some gotcha. It just makes you look silly. The quote works just as well with republic it.

Traditionally I agree with you (and have raised the point many times), but lately I’m not so sure if it’s a representative democracy at all. I suppose the very corrupt and wealthy are a class being represented, but a representative democracy is in theory supposed to provide representative coverage for all. That seems to be a vanishing case.

This is true as well. Because the people (mostly) let them.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#443

Post by vineyardmike »

lxgr wrote: post #137
kotaKat wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check the App Store screenshots - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/rest-by-noiseaware/id644925142... The app even tracks the whole fee amount in-app being collected. "Net charge", "adjusted charge amount" reasons of "guest complaint"...

Their "NoiseAware" main product line also sounds incredibly dystopian. Apparently, that's a "privacy-safe" microphone listening in rental properties, to "detect crowds gathering"...!? This type of creepy stuff, together with Airbnb's horrible business practices (last time they wanted access to my checking account transaction history via Plaid!) and enabling scammy hosts, is why I'm back to just staying at regular hot…

Not only that but it's used for "occupancy detection" to detect crowd sizes.

I once stayed at an AirBnB with some friends and the power went out in the evening one day of the trip. The next door neighbor also lost power, and came over to check on us - and didn't even step in the house. The next morning I got a nasty email from the host accusing me of abusing the occupancy limit. Clearly there were some hidden cameras or something in the house.

As silly as this example is, its just another annoying example of how technology is abused to monitor compliance with what should be a social issue.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#444

Post by missingcolours »

wlonkly wrote: post #427

Based on the thread and the replies to the thread, it sounds like this is a particular (franchised) hotel, and there are other (franchised) hotels in other brands that are using the same revenue stream. So boycotting Hyatt will not let you avoid ending up at a hotel with these things.

Yes, I feel like it's important to clarify that this is one specific hotel which happens to be associated with Hyatt, not a general program instituted by Hyatt or any specific chain.

If Hyatt refuses to address this scam after being made aware of it, that's a different story, but for now this is a story about specific hotel properties' wrongdoing.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#445

Post by vineyardmike »

xyzal wrote: post #314
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #4

Synopsis and excerpt: [Rest] markets itself as a way to "unlock a new revenue stream" with the help of a "robust algorithm" for detecting smoking. Hotels where these sensors are installed rack up complaints and negative reviews, after Rest sensors register false positives - thereby unlocking that revenue stream for the hotels. The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong…

Yet when you try to impose legislation regulating black-box algorithms, suddenly it's among the HN crowd the Big Bad EU choking businesses and stifling progress, vid the recent AI agreement discussion.

Regulating "algorithms" doesn't mean banning. If an algorithm is used to make a decision, a human should be in the loop. There is no way these smoke detectors have any real algorithmic complexity, it's just a vague word used to hide intent and responsibility. How the EU AI agreement, focused on copyright and security, relevant to this?

I can write an "algorithm" that uses hotel data to determine if you should be charged a penalty. Now we can't question it because it was an algorithm.

> def charge_extra(data): return True

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#446

Post by birdman3131 »

seszett wrote: post #393
ericmay wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a common practice in most western countries and can confirm for you a list of a dozen or more hotels ranging from $100/night to $1000/night that do this in countries ranging from Ireland to France to Japan. It's really no big deal and is extremely common. In fact, France as I discovered does this at the gas stations where they put $200 or so authorizations on your card for absolutely no good reason. There ar…

> France as I discovered does this at the gas stations where they put $200 or so authorizations on your card for absolutely no good reason. It's the same here but I'm not sure how it could work another way? They have to make sure you have the money to pay for the fuel you're pumping, it doesn't seem weird to me. I can't imagine a pump that allows you to pump as you wish and then just begs you to pay. That works for t…

It ends up being bank dependant a bit. (USA here)

If I use either my cashapp or chime card I had better have the full $100-200 on there or it will fail the authorisation.

On the other hand my main bank is a local bank and they treat all gas station preauth's as a $1 charge. So I can have say $30 in the account and still get $25 in gas whereas many other cards/banks would just decline.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#447

Post by danpalmer »

jwr wrote: post #397
recipe19 wrote: post #259

It reminds me of a hotel I stayed at that had a stocked mini-fridge. Removing any item from the fridge resulted in an automatic, silent charge. Putting it back did not remove the charge. So if you simply took something out to check it in, or if you wanted to chill your own beverage, they counted that as consuming the item. They removed the charges if you checked the bill and objected at checkout. But how many people…

I am amazed that hotels are still stuck in this old mindset of charging exorbitant amounts to some customers (unpleasant to customers) rather than providing a good service to all customers (good for customers). If I knew that a hotel chain will have my room fridge stocked with beer at reasonable prices (small markup or even no markup, because this does not need to be a revenue stream!), I would pick that hotel every…

The problem is that renting rooms is pretty low margin. Hotels typically need to pull up the average margin with addons like this to make the business worthwhile.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#448

Post by oatmeal1 »

jwr wrote: post #397
recipe19 wrote: post #259

It reminds me of a hotel I stayed at that had a stocked mini-fridge. Removing any item from the fridge resulted in an automatic, silent charge. Putting it back did not remove the charge. So if you simply took something out to check it in, or if you wanted to chill your own beverage, they counted that as consuming the item. They removed the charges if you checked the bill and objected at checkout. But how many people…

I am amazed that hotels are still stuck in this old mindset of charging exorbitant amounts to some customers (unpleasant to customers) rather than providing a good service to all customers (good for customers). If I knew that a hotel chain will have my room fridge stocked with beer at reasonable prices (small markup or even no markup, because this does not need to be a revenue stream!), I would pick that hotel every…

It's funny that the disruption to hotels - Airbnb - Does what you're complaining about but 100x worse

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#449

Post by oatmeal1 »

scoofy wrote: post #390
schwartzworld wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at a hotel recently with packaged snacks on a tray, cookies crackers etc. There was a sign clearly explaining that moving anything off the tray results in an automatic charge. Thank god we didn’t have the kids with us.

This kind of thing is so penny smart, pound foolish. If I ever see that sign, it's immediately going on my Instagram, telling everyone I know to never stay at such a place. I'm still never staying at AirBnB's when it actually matters because they completely screwed over my gf when she booked a bachelorette party and the owner literally sold the property without cancelling the reservation and the new owner rebooked th…

Airbnb and Hertz are two companies in an ever-lasting battle to prove who hates their customer more.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#450

Post by jerlam »

alistairSH wrote: post #349
mihaaly wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually when an algorithm results in something false, then you do not have to challange it, it is just simply wrong. Insisting and charging somoking based on implicit and obscure ways of a "revenue stream generating" detector is a pure scam or fraud. Those involved in this criminal endeavour should be procecuted. I will avoid Hyatt just in case and discourage my social circles too, warning them! No-one needs this sl…

Does Hyatt corporate have any say in this? Pretty sure many hotels are licensing the name, independent managed, etc. Ie you’re just as likely to find these at an other brand hotels too.

I believe that most Hyatt hotels are franchises and not directly owned by corporate. The hotels have certain "brand standards" they must obey to be part of that brand, but management is local. Same as Hilton.

Here's someone at a Marriott with the same bogus smoking fee:

https://old.reddit.com/r/marriott/comments/1drhkvz/400_fee_w...

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